Papa, suggested Mark 10:35-45 for our Bible discussion:
Mark 10:35-45 (King James Version)
35 Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Him, saying, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask.”
36 And He said to them, “What do you want Me to do for you?”
37 They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”
38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
39 They said to Him, “We are able.”
So Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized; 40 but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared.”
41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be greatly displeased with James and John. 42 But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. 44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
The first thing that jumps out at me is where in verse 35 James and John ask Jesus “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask.” I have a pretty big ego, but I would never ask a teacher, mentor or anyone else to do whatever I ask them to.
In 37 they ask that they may sit, one on each side of Jesus. To me they are requesting special status among all of Jesus followers.
In 38 Jesus rebukes them, “You do not know what you ask.” When Jesus asked if they are able to “drink the cup I drink” and be baptized as Jesus has been baptized. In 39 they reply, “We are able.” This sounds pretty egotistical to me, or at the least a little naive. I suspect I may be mis-interprating the meaning of verses 38 and 39.
With 40 Jesus replies “but sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give but it is for those for whom it is prepared.” I am not clear what this means other then that perhaps Jesus is saying that only God make that decision.
In 41 the other apostles(?) become upset with James and John for requesting special status. In 42 and 43 Jesus tells them that while among Gentiles rulers lord over their subjects “Yet it shall not be so among you.” Further in 43 “whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant” and in 44 “Whoever of you desires to be first shall be a slave of all”. This is clear guidance as to how church leaders should act. They should act humble and recognize they are servants to those they guide. I am going to guess that here Jesus is not referring to the church leaders who drive around in limos, and live in mansions. 🙂
This is brought home when in 45 Jesus says, “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.
The overriding theme is that Christ Followers, even their leaders, especially their leaders, need to act as humble servants, and not as lords over those they guide.
The World Through My Eyes 
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August 21, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Indian Lake Papa
Ed, this scripture has really been a driver in my relationship with my savior. especially the past year. I am not one to focus on “correct” theology, but “correct” relationship – both are intertwined, I know that, but I think sometimes we sit in our rocking chairs with our bibles in our laps when we should be over to our neighbors – serving. I may have some of my theology screwed up, but I pray my relationship with Christ is on target.
Verse 35 is very bold if you ask me! In Matthews version even “mom” got involved! What ??!! It is not about us – its about Him – and our service. I think you have it figured out quite well Ed.
I have read the “Purpose Driven Life” book three and a half times, written by Rick Warren. The first two times i didn’t care for it – the third time I started to finally get it – in fact I wept most of the time I read. If you haven’t read it Ed, its good reading for life application.
I am not one to deny the pastor his “limo” or judge his life – but I do look at everything I own/have as a tool for serving Christ – including Precious I and Precious II! Sorry, didn’t mean to get carried away! 🙂
August 22, 2009 at 2:41 pm
edfromct
Papa, if your are passionate about your faith, which your are, you should get carried away by it.
You are right that we need to focus on how well we serve our community, rather than judging anyone else.
From what I read about Rick Warren on Wikipedia, while I don’t share his religious beliefs, his message of a purpose driven life focusing on serving those in need, is one we all should become better at.
“Warren has called on churches worldwide to also focus their efforts on fighting poverty and disease, expanding educational opportunities for the marginalized, and caring for the environment.”
Bring joy into people’s life, which you do with Precious I and Precious II, is another way of serving your family and community.
Humbly serving is the important message of Mark 10:35-45.
August 22, 2009 at 11:29 am
Michelle
As Messiah, Jesus would be setting up His kingdom on earth, or so the brothers thought. I suppose they wanted the top seats in His cabinet. Probably Sec. of Defense and Sec. of State…???
They weren’t much different than us. Hoping to make a name for themselves. Wanting power to rule. Desiring top recognition.
I love the upside-down ways of God. We’re all about power and prestige (pride). He’s all about humility and serving one another (love).
I’m reading Larry Crabb’s book, Inside Out. He talks about the problem of “demandingness” … the ugliness of pride before God and not loving one another as we are called to do. I’m taking my time reading it, cause the things he discusses hit tooooooo close to home.
The Sons of Thunder (James and John) would have done well to have Crabb’s help. Huh. Actually…Jesus said it much more succinctly than Crabb: Whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant.
Upside-down living…the way of the true Christ-follower.
You nailed it, Ed! (IMHO)
August 22, 2009 at 3:26 pm
edfromct
Michelle, I like the term “upside-down” living as it does applies to how we should live in the world. When we learn humility, and focusing on serving one another, than this world will become a better place. Loving, and serving each other, is the key.
Sons of Thunder sounds more a like a wrestling tag team than Jesus disciples. From reading the following about the Zebedee brothers James and John, I see there were defenders of the faith, and would also probably be very successfully on the WWF circuit. 🙂
http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/SonsOfThunder.htm
“We often think how pushy their mother was (dear old mom getting blamed again 🙂 ), but notice they were willing to suffer for Christ”
“James was the first apostle to die for his faith – Acts 12-2”
“Notice that their lack of knowledge was corrected and their zeal was put to useful work for the Lord”
We do need that thunder to have the courage to risk suffering for our faith. We also need to keep the focus on serving our faith, not our own desires.
You are right about the “ugliness of pride”. Excess pride has been one of my biggest character flaws.
As Jesus says in Mark 10:43 “Whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant.” In looking at the self-centered focus to far too many people in the US a lot of us do seem to have an “Upside-down” view of what serving means.
August 22, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Indian Lake Papa
Ed, I never thought of the “Sons of Thunder” as WWF team! LOL If we could throw in Peter that would be quite a team! Of course if Jesus was there personal trainer/manager that might be a little unfair.
August 22, 2009 at 4:22 pm
edfromct
Papa, I think if I saw Jesus in my opponents corner I would start to worry a bit. Are there any rules in wrestling against lightning bolts? 🙂
August 24, 2009 at 5:54 am
lovewillbringustogether
Wow some are quick to judge others than themselves – or as themselves.
I have often said that reading some lines in the Bible ‘alone’ is never a good idea in my opinion – i don’t believe the Bible is intended to be read that way as our human natures more often make us do so.
In this particular case Matthew 19:27-30 and Matthew 20:20-34 provide additional insight into the lines we are looking at in Mark.
Personally as i read those lines i like to think of the APOSTLES James and John – ones chose by Christ Himself to follow Him and be His earthly successors in spreading His Gospel, who willingly gave up their very lives for Him after he was raised (and gave up considerable things before then) actually deserve a little less harsh a view.
Christ tells all 12 that in the RE-generation, in His Gllory the 12 will be seated with Him in Heaven judging the 12 tribes of Israel – as such i don’t see them as being ‘egotistical’ that they should seek to sit next to Him?
I believe they earned their nickname as the sons of thunder because of their zeal and desire to ensure Christ was protected from those who sought to destroy Him – they were strong and faithful to Him until and beyond Death (you too will drink of the cup i drink and be baptised of my baptism) and any desire to be seated close to Him shows they wished to ensure no-one could ‘get to their master unless they got through them first.
The words of Mark and Matthew are different in describing who asked what, but i saw the words of Mark as showing the actions of two ‘pupils’ who wished to show the master how well they had been learning from Him and played a practical joke on Jesus – we’ll ask Him to give us whatever we want and then show Him what we want is to be closer to Him than anyone else – that we are 100% loyal to Him and believe what he has told/taught us so far. (as well as we could see it).
They were intent upon following Him wherever He should lead – no matter what – and they wished nothing more than to be as close to Him as they could be.
Apart from those few points i thought you and i agree pretty much 🙂
You are quite right about the line ‘is not mine to give’ as Matt:20:23 clearly states. 🙂
<B
August 24, 2009 at 5:37 pm
edfromct
In Mark 10:35-36 it is the brothers asking to sit on the right and left hand of God. In Mathew 20:22-24 it is their mother who makes the request. Whoever did make the request it still appears to me they/she is asking that the brothers James and John be given special status among the 12 apostles. Isn’t that up to Jesus to decide. Also this request does create some dissension among the apostles. I read these verses as a lesson for leaders to show humility.
“any desire to be seated close to Him shows they wished to ensure no-one could ‘get to their master unless they got through them first.”
I follow this interpration of their actions as James and John are such strong defenders of Jesus. Since I read Jesus reply as more of a rebuke ” Ye know not what ye ask.”, I still see the request to sit on either side of Jesus as one for special status.
“i saw the words of Mark as showing the actions of two ‘pupils’ who wished to show the master how well they had been learning from Him and played a practical joke on Jesus”
That is an interesting observation. I haven’t read that much of the Bible but it could imagine some playful exchanges between Jesus and his apostles. I am not so sure that I would want to be the one to risk a lighting bolt by doing so. 🙂
August 24, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Indian Lake Papa
what really strikes me is that they did not understand Christ’s mission. It was a mission of service, not position. This incident was put in the scriptures to help us understand Christs mission – both James & John did get the message and gave their lives as servants of Christ. I hope I am learning as quickly as they did.
This was not a “practical joke on Jesus” – it was a very serious exchange and Christ handled as such. He even referenced the fact that they would become servants as He was a servant – the rest of the disciples did not see it as a joke and in fact were angry – mostly because they did not ask first. It was the real beginning of opening their eyes. My prayer each day is that my vision stays clear.
August 24, 2009 at 11:26 pm
edfromct
You make a very good point. There is never a time when we can sit back and say we have found our faith, the job is done.
We need to keep working on our faith very day of our lives. We need to make sure our vision stays clear.
August 25, 2009 at 5:03 am
lovewillbringustogether
Papa – i certainly agree with you on your first paragraph. 🙂
But remember this – at the time of Jesus in Israel they had a LOOOOOOOOONG history of Kings and Kingdoms – of mere men – that was all they ‘knew’. When Jesus was trying to teach them about the Kingdom to Come, the Apostles – like unto everyone else – had nothing but their history to compare it to.
Kingdoms were all about Rulers and position, Power and Authority – not service. They can hardly be blamed for not understanding this too quickly. Especially given the subjugation to the ‘Kings’ of Egypt, Persia, the Greeks and now Rome Jews had had to surrender to suppression and in many cases persecution all this time, they likely wanted some of their ‘own’ back.
As to your second paragraph – it not being a ‘joke’. Do you seriously think James and John who both loved Jesus so greatly would think they could ORDER Him to place them at His Right and Left hand for all eternity? That they would belligerently believe they ‘deserved’ the Role and so sought it from their Master through making a serious and determined request of Him to give THEM what THEY wanted ? Ahead of what their Master would decide?
That seems to be giving Jesus’ successors on earth very little by way of consideration in my humble estimation. i believe they deserve ALL benefit of doubt and that not all scripture HAS to be only read as showing us how ‘bad’ we mere mortals are compared to how Perfect he is.
Why are Christians (particularly the ‘Scholars’ and teachers who i’m sure are at least partly responsible for the viewpoint you hold in this) so very keen to snipe and bite and see only the worst in the Apostles and not offer simple human Charity to their fellow members?
<B
August 25, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Indian Lake Papa
Love – I think “Christians’ today struggle like James & John did – as to what role Christ plays in their life – they thought Christ was going to come back and set up an earthly Kingdom – and they wanted position in that Kingdom. I have seen many a “Christian” leave the church, leave a ministry because they were ignored or didn’t get position. Thats why this scripture talks about service – we just don’t get it. If not careful we can walk around thinking “Christ is so fortunate to have me as one of His own”. I try to start each day with; “where can I serve today?”
I wept today in the optometrists office as she gave me my eye exam – I shared about my Parkinson Disease and my concern about not being able to type as I am now – I want what I say to be what will serve my Christ: To help Ed, You & I to seek His direction just a little more each day. I just want to serve.
August 25, 2009 at 11:19 pm
edfromct
A life altering disease like Parkinson can making thinking about how it will effect the future a scary proposition.
You are serving our community, and your God, today, and I don’t see that changing. Your family and friends will make sure that doesn’t happen. It may not be easy, it may prove to be a difficult challenge, but it is in overcoming challenges that faith grows.
I look forward to many more years of us helping to grow our online community together, and of seeing you and Mama in October.
August 25, 2009 at 11:27 pm
lovewillbringustogether
We definitely agree here Papa. So many have never fully ‘got it’. (Because mostly we are too ‘full’ of ourselves). The BEST service we can ever do for Him is to show His Love to others as it exists within us – and have Hope and Faith that He will use that to His Purpose.
Whether you can see, type, shake or just talk – i am sure you will continue doing all you can – and have – to serve Him… and that is not going unnoticed by those around you – and around the world 🙂
<B
August 25, 2009 at 2:53 am
lovewillbringustogether
i agree the rest of the Twelve were not amused, were ‘angry’ at James and John – i do not presume to assume what the actual reason(s) behind their anger was. There are many ‘explanations’ – some giving benefit to James and John – some doing otherwise. How much Brotherly Love were the 10 showing to the 2 at this time? So just who was truly following Jesus – if any?. Unless you were there you would never know which was the case.
Jesus’s reply to the question was not so much a rebuke as a statement – Jesus knew very well – and had tried a little to explain to them – what suffering He was about to endure and any who insisted in being that close to Him would suffer a similar fate and degree. It was more of a warning to them in my eyes, not a chastisement.
His response that they would indeed drink of His Cup and be Baptised of His Baptism ( of Fire, and Spirit – not of Water) shows that Jesus trusted and loved these men – even if at this moment James and John did not fully understand what was being asked, was about to happen, or possess the Holy Spirit.
i know it was said in jest – but it was not Jesus’ style to throw lightening Bolts that was more of a pagan Viking Thing – Thor. And was adopted by later christians as a Godly thing.
Boanerges or ‘the sons of Thunder could have been given to them because they were very loud in speaking the Word of God, Thunder being believed to be the ‘sound’ of God’s voice likened unto? 🙂
And Papa – i’m sure that much like today, very few people at the time had much of a clue about Jesus’ True Purpose. – Even those closest to Him – until after the event.
<B
August 25, 2009 at 6:25 pm
edfromct
“Unless you were there you would never know which was the case.”
Which is why we have such interesting discussions. A whole career path has been created, “Biblical Scholars”, so some can spend all their time debating the meaning of each verse, each word, in the Bible, and all the holy books. 🙂
Of course I doubt there is much difference between two scientist having a “civilized” debate, two religious scholars “discussing” Bible verses, or two professional wrestlers taking about which is the best move. 🙂
“Jesus’s reply to the question was not so much a rebuke as a statement.” It was more of a warning to them in my eyes, not a chastisement.”
I can see that. Since I am reading Mark 10 as a lesson in humility I am more inclined to read verse 10:38 as a rebuke. However a warning fits just as well.
Lighting bolts were more the trade mark of the Greek God Zeus and the Viking Thor. God seems to favorite “fire and brimstone”.
August 25, 2009 at 11:43 pm
lovewillbringustogether
“Of course I doubt there is much difference between two scientist having a “civilized” debate, two religious scholars “discussing” Bible verses, or two professional wrestlers taking about which is the best move.”
Cleverly observed and stated Ed! Completely agree.
Of course this does then lead to the ‘question’: How do we determine the Truth – or is there even such a thing as absolute Truth, or merely different people’s opinions or perspectives of something intangible or unknowable.
What are the facts? and are they actually as important as what we just THINK (believe) the facts are? (the article you mentioned where people believed Saddam was responsible for 9/11 despite the facts showing otherwise was an interesting case in point)
That is a major philosophical discussion and we may need a new post (or a whole new blog?) 😉 to get far into that one.
And then there is people’s ability to apply ‘logic’ to ‘known’ facts to draw ‘conclusions’.
in my experience people have about as much ability to use the rules of logic about as well as they can agree on the precepts of Religion and God – i.e. hardly at all ! 😉
i don’t propose that people reject and forego logic as a result, but that, like Religion, they learn how to do it BETTER.
<B
August 26, 2009 at 5:36 pm
edfromct
I see the reasoning ability of our brain as a tool we use when analyzing a puzzle, or problem. How well we use this tools is shaped by the success, and failures, we have experienced. The better we are at learning from the past, the better prepared we when we face future problems.
I think every single decision we make is a crap shoot. The odds may be more, or less, in our favour, depending on how adequately we have used our reasoning ability, but the out come is always in doubt.
The most prominent characteristic of those who claim to be experts, in any field, may be the size of their ego. 🙂
August 26, 2009 at 11:13 pm
lovewillbringustogether
Quantum Scientists say that basically the Universe is ALL about ‘probabilities’ rather than a single actual ‘fact’ – that the facts can never be known until a particular ‘probability’ has been observed and ‘realised’ thus causing all other previously potential possibilities to collapse leaving only one thing in our (immediate past) reality.
Basically like a crap shoot where any number may result during the throw but only one outcome eventuates (is finally observed) and the other chances become zero probability when the dice stop moving.
Einstein however said he did not believe God played Dice!
SO do you think Science is right and it is all ‘craps’ and random chance – or is Einstein right and God provides a perfect ‘ordered’ Universe (non-chance) that He and he alone is able to control?
Or are you going to choose to see it another way? 😉
<B
August 27, 2009 at 1:49 am
edfromct
Hasn’t Quantum Mechanics already proven Einstein wrong? As I understand it Einstein believe in these theories because, as you say, he did not think God played dice with the Universe.
I have a stronger bias towards randomness, then a perfectly ordered Universe. I do believe that using the scientific process of testing evidence will give us the best answers to better understanding our world, and each other.
Following the scientific process could also force us to develop more discipline to live in the world better. However I see no evidence that scientest are any more moral than the rest of us.
I believe we will have to evolve a better model of our brain before we can learn how to develop socities that will cooperate more with each other, instead making war on our neighbors.
I’ll place my beat on evolution, not the God of religion. 🙂
August 27, 2009 at 2:58 am
lovewillbringustogether
“Following the scientific process could also force us to develop more discipline to live in the world better. However I see no evidence that scientest are any more moral than the rest of us.”
or to put it according to my bias: “Following the religious process could also force us to develop more discipline to live in the world better. However i see no evidence that religious instructors are any more moral than the rest of us.” 😉
i believe i have mentioned many times that Christianity requires us to test what is good so as to distinguish it from what is ‘bad’ for each one of us – it is not unique to ‘the science process’.
As for Quantum Mechanics and Einstein. While Quantum Mechanics have provided one or two ‘reliable’ predictions concerning our Universe (mostly at the way below sub-atomic level) that were previously unknown to us, when it comes to our everyday world that we live in quantum effects are not distinguishable. God does not play ‘dice’ at our level of existence so in that sense Einstein was more ‘right’ than the Quantum Physicists.
The maths and the theory may be as sound as humans have currently been able to approach close enough to grasp on to- but what lies beyond and is underlying the quantum Universe still remains to be discovered by science and therefore by ‘man’ – unless you simply cut through it all and accept the True Nature of God 😉
There are very few experiments science is currently able to perform to gather sufficient ‘evidence’ to put to the test for quantum science.
The LHC at CERN may provide a few more ‘answers’ and experimental results that provide us with more ‘clues’.
i remain quite certain that God is big (and small) enough to fit them all easily within ‘Him’ and that all evidence gathered simply reinforces this understanding. 🙂
Hope to meet you on the other side of ‘The Circle’ 🙂
<B
August 27, 2009 at 4:02 pm
edfromct
My guess is that all the evidence gather is restricted to the Universe we live in. I doubt that if there is anything beyond this we will ever be able to verify it.
The process of science is a never ending one of asking questions. Someone comes up with a great idea, and then someone else has a better one. That is way the most we can say about any theory is that it is the best one that the current evidence.
I don’t believe the answer “it’s God” can be scientifically tested. Your experiences in life lead you to have faith that God, and his guidance. My experiences don’t.
Since we both, hopefully, have many more years of asking questions left in us, we may both some day develop faith in the same answers.
August 27, 2009 at 11:53 pm
lovewillbringustogether
“My guess is that all the evidence gather is restricted to the Universe we live in.”
The Universe is literally growing bigger every second Ed – and also Science is constantly expanding the ways we can see ‘further’ into it (greater and smaller than ever before and more details) every second also.
So as restricted as our Universe is, and we are to it, it grows ever closer to God by reason of Science (God being the ‘maximum limit’ of everything).
“That is way the most we can say about any theory is that it is the best one that the current evidence.” (supports?)
This is one of the reasons i made the ‘leap’ over to Faith in God – i could no longer go on having faith in something that so easily became superceded and the ‘old’ truth was shown to be wrong/incomplete by a ‘new’ one that would likely itself later be shown to be just as ‘wrong’, maybe that is good enough for some but not me.
I hope i never am forced to provide the unacceptably ‘weak’ answer that ‘it’s just God’ to any question. i do believe however that after the satisfactory answer to the question has been supplied, it is realised that it IS God that is what underlies both the answer and the question and the questioner and the Universe in which the question related to.
Basically, that there is nothing that exists that does not exist initially and solely because of God.
That is what underlies my Faith and is in my Hope and i expect can never be sufficiently proven, without doubt.
If there is no doubt then there is no reason for God. – You ‘know everything’ – you would BE as God.
If things then remain out of your control and things happen ‘unexpectedly’ or without explanation then it is a fair bet you are living in a false understanding. Doubt – and therefore God – still exists independently of you. 🙂
<B
September 4, 2009 at 6:07 pm
pelagian7
An agnostic who agrees with Jesus’ teachings in the four Gospels and likes your take on Mark. I read some other comments and some people were justifying their wealth. Aren’t we rewriting scripture by choosing to translate it the way we like it?
One thing I’d like to point out. The Jewish way of life was very much like we see today in strict Muslim homes. Women were not permitted to instruct men, much less go to school. Traveling with men, being involved with the ressurrection, were important messages often lost today. I wonder why Paul continued to see women as inferior to men, when Jesus didn’t?
September 4, 2009 at 7:20 pm
edfromct
Thanks pelagian7 for taking the time to comment.
“I read some other comments and some people were justifying their wealth. Aren’t we rewriting scripture by choosing to translate it the way we like it?”
I don’t see where anyone who commented spoke of wealth, unless you mean spiritual wealth. Could you elaborate please?
“One thing I’d like to point out. The Jewish way of life was very much like we see today in strict Muslim homes. Women were not permitted to instruct men, much less go to school. Traveling with men, being involved with the ressurrection, were important messages often lost today. I wonder why Paul continued to see women as inferior to men, when Jesus didn’t?”
That is an interesting point of view but would seem to be off topic to our discussion of the Holy Spirit. How does the way women are treated in society relate to the guidance a beliver receives from their Holy Spirit?
In general, I think the idea that women are the intellectual equal of men, and should be treated as such, is a more modern concept. The more “tradtional” a society is, regardless of which religious group they belong to, the more likely they are to discriminate, in some manner, against women. Of course that is a topic that deserves it’s own post.
September 4, 2009 at 8:11 pm
pelagian7
Thank you for pointing out my mistake. Unless I’m delusional, I probably read those comments on another blog. And the female comment had to do with that other blog or my delusion.
However, I must point you to Ian Wilson’s, Before The Flood or books by Merlin Stone. Many early religions were led by woman, archealogical evidence supports this. Stone will point to monotheism as the downfall of women.
September 4, 2009 at 9:01 pm
edfromct
Thanks for the reading suggestions. I am not familiar with either Wilson or Stone. I will check them out.