In our last Bible Study Mama (Judy) choose 2 Timothy 1:12 as one of her planks of faith for her ark. Some of the wording I found a little confusing. I am selecting it so you can help me understand it better. I’ll start from verse 8.
2 Timothy 1:8-12 (New International Version)
8So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
12That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_Timothy
In his letter, Paul urges Timothy to not have a “spirit of timidity” and to “not be ashamed to testify about our Lord” (1:7-8). He also entreats Timothy to come to him before winter, and to bring Mark with him (cf. Philippians 2:22). He was anticipating that “the time of his departure was at hand” (4:6), and he exhorts his “son Timothy” to all diligence and steadfastness in the face of false teachings, with advice about combating them with reference to the teachings of the past, and to patience under persecution (1:6–15), and to a faithful discharge of all the duties of his office (4:1–5), with all the solemnity of one who was about to appear before the Judge of the quick and the dead.
The wording in verse 12 that I am not clear on is, “I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.” Is Paul speaking of God as the one whom he believed? If so then in the last part is Paul saying that he is convinced that God is able to guard what he, Paul, entrusted to God. What did Paul entrust to God?
The World Through My Eyes 
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October 29, 2009 at 2:39 am
David
An interesting translational thing. In fact, in some translations (like the New Living), there is a footnote:
12…r I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him* until the day of his return.
*or “what has been entrusted to me”
So, which is right?
I think both are. I’ve not studied this passage in detail before, but it makes sense to me in either context. Christians place our faith in God – we entrust it to God, believing he will guard that faith and jealously defend us.
Likewise, He entrusts His commission to go to all the world and preach the Gospel to us.
So there is trust going both ways. It’s a relationship after all. Only thing is, we humans the only ones who ever stuff up our side of the deal 🙂
As to why various translations word this differently? I’m not sure – it’s not my area of expertise at all. But it’s possibly like the classic OT KJV issue of where humans sit in relation to angels… KJV translators did not believe it was possible we were above the angels, whereas that is what the Hebrew text says – we are created just a little lower than God, but above the angels.
October 30, 2009 at 12:13 am
edfromct
David, you have made verse 12 clearer to me. “He entrusts his commission to go to all the world and preach the Gospel to us.”
I hadn’t thought of the CF’s placing their faith in God as entrusting it to him. Giving your trust to God, surrendering your will to him, is the most important act of a CFs faith.
I also had not considered what God gets out of the relationship. In this case God entrusted his commission to spread the faith to Paul. Paul is passing it on to Timothy.
As an outsider when I see all the different versions of the Bible it emphasis the point that these words were written by man. Every group that has revised the Bible says God guided their hand. When I look up Bible passages on BibleGateway I have 20 different versions to choose from. I don’t know how different these versions are from one other I have to wonder why God would guide 20 different groups to write 20 different translations. 🙂
My perception is the each CF needs to look to their indwelling Holy Spirit first as their guide. Its the Spirit that guides each CF to the right meaning of the words in the Bible, which ever version that choice to read.
October 30, 2009 at 1:19 am
David
You make a good point re the versions thing Ed…
Part of it is due to the changes in the way language has been used through the ages, and partly the huge diversity we have in the English language in terms of words which basically say the same thing. Most of the versions are very close in word choice, while some will approach things from a different angle…rather than actually saying something different.
The Holy Spirit is indeed essential in guiding us in our application of the written Word. He’s God living in us CFs, so He’s the one we must choose to listen to.
So, 20 different groups (or more) to help cater to the 20+ different ways people need to hear the same message communicated slightly differently.
October 30, 2009 at 8:51 pm
edfromct
I have read that some words in a translated Bible get changed when old documents are found that give a new interpretation of a word. Sometimes it is more politics that gives rise to a new translation:
From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_version_of_the_Bible
“In January 1604, King James I of England convened the Hampton Court Conference where a new English version was conceived in response to the perceived problems of the earlier translations as detected by the Puritan’s, a faction within the Church of England.”
Biblical scholars may debate the translation of words in the Bible as much as my Atheist scientist argue over their theories. 🙂
As you say David in most case the change in the translation is minor, and does not changed the guidance of the passage.
October 29, 2009 at 2:40 am
David
And another comment since I forgot to tick the email button…as you were…
October 29, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Indian Lake Papa
Hi! This is Mama again.
I feel that I have entrusted my life to God and He will guard or protect me as long as I keep following Him. I know in my life He has protected me and prepared me to face very hard places in life. I think of one very hard time in my life when I am not sure how I would have acted or reacted if I hadn’t had the assurance that God was with me and I didn’t need to go it alone. That didn’t change the fact that I was very sad and felt unworthy but I knew I could keep going with His help. It is a deep relationship with Him that keeps me going. I like Timothy, am not ashamed of Jesus as my Lord. 🙂 I love God’s promises in the Bible. They are not just for me but anyone who wants to claim through Jesus.
Blessings to you –
Mama
October 30, 2009 at 12:30 am
edfromct
Hi Mama, great to hear from you again.
When I read the Wikipedia article about the Book of Timothy there is a part that reminds me of the kind of faith you have. “Paul urges Timothy to not have a “spirit of timidity” and to “not be ashamed to testify about our Lord” You spirit is clearly not timid, and you don’t hide it from the world. 🙂
Your relationship to God must be a deep one, if it is to help you pass the obstacles that life will put in front of you.
The pathway to faith is often a very crooked road, as Paul’s story shows. The CF must continue to keep their faith strong because it is way too easy to fall of that path.
Remember to make sure that Papa is also keeping on the right path along side you. If he is riding Amos it is probably best if he follows behind you. 🙂
October 30, 2009 at 4:37 pm
alece
not really chiming in on the actual discussion, but dang, ed, i so admire your heart to learn, to seek, to understand.
that’s all. 😉
October 30, 2009 at 9:33 pm
edfromct
Thanks for stopping by Alece. We are all helping each other understand our worlds better. It would be a much better world if everyone else got along as we do in our blogging community.
October 31, 2009 at 11:19 am
Michelle
Hey, Ed. I’m really late on this one. This vertigo has got to lessen one of these days!
Paul entrusted his whole being to God. Paul wrote these words, “I am crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me.” He considered himself dead to his will and alive to God’s. He understood his times were in God’s hands and God would be faithful to bring him before His throne, complete…lacking nothing.
So, even though he was suffering for Christ, in prison for preaching the gospel, he understands this is the will of God for him. He will go wherever God desires and preach every chance he gets for the sake of the gospel…spreading the good news: Man can be free through Christ.
That’s my thinkin’ and I’m stickin’ with it! 🙂
November 2, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Michelle
Hey, Ed, I’m getting kinda worried about you. Your last tweet was Oct. 30th and your last post was the 28th. You okay?
This is the part I hate about blogging…not knowing when people aren’t around…wondering if they’re okay.
I’m praying and hoping you’re fine.
November 2, 2009 at 9:08 pm
edfromct
Hi Michelle. Thinks for being concerned. I don’t usually go online over the weekend, and I spent most of today with friends. Just got back home, and I will try to catch up with my blogging buddies.
November 3, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Michelle
I’m glad to hear you were just out havin’ fun! 😉
November 2, 2009 at 9:07 pm
edfromct
Hope you feeling better soon Michelle. There is no such thing as being late to comment. It isn’t like this is a homework assignment, which I was always late with back in my school days. 🙂
In his letter to Timothy Paul knows his time on earth may end soon, and he is encouraging Timothy to carry on his work, in spreading the word of God. Timothy should not preach with “spirit of timidity” and to “not be ashamed to testify about our Lord”.
As you say Paul has given his will over to God, and and understands that means accepting whatever suffereing he has to endure in preaching the gospal.
Paul sets a good example for all CF, to try to develop the same degree of trust and faith in God’s guidance that he had at the end of his life on earth.
November 3, 2009 at 11:02 pm
danielle
I was gonna answer similar to Michelle’s –
He entrusted his whole life to God.
And God entrusted the whole job of “getting the word out” to us. See 2 Cor. 5.
November 4, 2009 at 12:17 am
edfromct
I can see that Paul in his letter to Timothy shows a confident faith. He is trying exhort Timothy to preach will equal passion, to receive what Jesus has guaranteed.
Paul also preaches this confident faith to the Corinthians in 2 Cor 5, verses 5,6,7 and 9:
5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight
9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
November 2, 2009 at 5:30 am
lovewillbringustogether
I’m even later than Sis but have been busy with more than one ‘distraction’ of late – you know how it gets sometimes? 🙂
Life can tire you out also.
If you read ancient greek fluently then you may be able to make more sense of this passage’s actual intent. I think any ‘confusion has more to do with a translators preconceptions when reading the original and trying to find the right wording to express what he believes the Spirit is trying to say through Paul ( to Timothy – not to us don’t forget).
i see ‘Him’ in whom Paul has believed in verse 12 to be Jesus Christ, who Paul never met in person before the crucifixion but whom he believes he has seen afterwards and who ‘converted him’ (perhaps what Paul was entrusted with – the Holy Spirit, God’s Grace). and that he believes Christ will protect this (in him) until the day Paul is Judged before Him in Heaven.
NetBible.org has this comment concerning the unspecific greek wording: 12 sn What has been entrusted to me (Grk “my entrustment,” meaning either (1) “what I have entrusted to him” [his life, destiny, etc.] or (2) “what he has entrusted to me” [the truth of the gospel]). The parallel with v. 14 and use of similar words in the pastorals (1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 2:2) argue for the latter sense.
Reading the KJV however i could see how Paul is suggesting to Timothy that he is to keep the Grace entrusted to him ( Tim) by the Holy Spirit ( verse 14) in the same manner as Paul is entrusting his Faith in Jesus Christ by the same means (verse 12).
Like Any who would truly follow Christ – Paul entrusted his entire total faith in Him. In Paul’s case this was presumably done After Jesus, through the Holy Ghost, or in tandem with it, entrusted Paul with the Gift of the Holy Spirit that he did not possess before that moment they met since we do not ‘live’ by our Faith alone and our works do not enable Grace to be given us.
As for what God ‘gets’ out of a relationship with us???
God has no need of anything from us – we do not possess anything God would consider ‘worthy’ of receiving that He does not have infinite supply of already – the only one who wants needs or gets in this relationship is us. He just Gives and is the source, and ultimately will be the end of, all.
It is some of us humans who need the certainty of a Happy Ending Fairy Story to keep going or we would be incapable of seeing any point or purpose to life and resort to anarchy and chaos.
and we can’t have that now can we? 😉
<B
November 2, 2009 at 10:03 pm
edfromct
1) I can follow that Paul sees the Holy Spirit as something that God has entrusted to him. That he (Paul) puts his complete trust in God’s will. I can also see in this letter Paul is writing to Timothy, he is exhorting Timothy to take up Paul’s work in preaching the gospel, to be willing to suffer as he (Paul) has.
“am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.”
I don’t think of the faith that man has in God as something that God is guarding for his followers, during their time on earth. Grace is God’s gift to man. God is entrusting the preaching of his gospel to man. Are the words in the 12th verse viewing God’s final reward of heaven as something he (God) is guarding for mankind?
2) I can see that God does not need anything from man, however in Genesis 1:31 after God created the man and the earth it says “and behold, it was very good”. I read that as meaning that creating man pleased God. I think there are other references, which I can’t remember, where God is said to be pleased by the work of man.
Is God indifferent as to whether mankind follows his guidance? God got pissed 🙂 enough at mankind’s disrespect for him to bring the Great Flood, and only save his faithful servant Noah. Since God sacrificed his only Son on the behalf of mankind, doesn’t that imply some degree of caring? Of course in my science based view of creation the forces of nature have no emotions, they just exist.
November 3, 2009 at 11:02 pm
danielle
wouldn’t that be a great talent, to read ancient greek fluently?! wow…
November 3, 2009 at 5:01 am
lovewillbringustogether
As i realised over at Michelle’s place where you and she were speaking of Grace and Faith there is a clear difference between the two we should not be mistaking.
Man can have faith in God ( or not) but man may ‘lose’ his faith. If we put our trust in God He will strengthen our faith. Grace as you rightly said is a gift from Him to us. It is given by His choice not ours – we choose whether or not to have Faith in Him and to trust Him or not. Grace is not Faith or vice versa. God and Jesus are able to guard or protect our Faith in them as paul writes he believes that He( Jesus) is able to protect/guard against the ways of men that can tend to challenge our faith and lead us astray. (particularly when our bodies are under attack)
Under 1) i don’t see Paul as specifically suggesting what you mention – just that Paul has confidence his faith is under Christ’s protection – He Trusts in Christ against the way of his own body and heart to do evil or rebel against God.
Under 2) i would see Genesis as meaning God was pleased with what he saw as His handiwork – he is pleased with most of his Creation before He creates man so clearly man is by no means the only things that please God nor is it implied that he was most pleased by Him – in fact God as you and Genesis later point out got very pissed because of man’s evil nature and contraryness to His Will.
Michelle quite pointedly has made clear that there is nothing in man that is worthy of himself – nothing God finds worthy that He himself has not put their ( Grace causing us to follow Him and praise Him, sharing the Gospel or whatever we do in His Name – never in our own.
As to sacrificing His Son implying some degree of caring?
Jesus when he took on Human form was emptied of His Godliness (Phil 2:7) and became as mortal flesh but without the ‘sin’ imputed to us of being born of mankind – it was mankind that had Him Killed (for less than 3 days when He Bodily rose again – so no big loss for God there Huh?)
Jewish belief as expressed in Genesis means that after God made Adam perfect and he almost instantly rebelled and sinned against his Creator that first born blood had to be spilled as compensation – it took a few thousand years but was finally offered by God to Himself for the rest of Humanity to have a chance of being cleansed of their sins. Some can see this as great caring for us. Some might see that the suffering this life mostly results in – even to His Son – is something less than truly caring what happens to us.
We humans are so very good at caring for those who obey us and think the same as we do while not caring all that much for any who don’t.
The Bible suggests that God is like us in this regard and will condemn those who don’t agree with Him to eternal judgement and will only reward those who think like Him and obey Him.
Caring? He can end the Universe any time He wishes and build a new one – is it caring that He doesn’t do so in our lifetime? What could His Creation possibly give Him that He has not already got the entire quantity of?
Really?
It’s a little like a man building himself an android robot for company that has nothing but what the man has given it – is the man truly caring for the robot? or does He just get tired of being alone and needs a distraction?
Would he come to love the android for what ‘it’ has given him (that he gave to it first?)
it’s probably best if we don’t go too far down that particular road for our own sanity. What little we still may possess? 😉
is it just me, or have we reversed ‘roles’ here??
<B
November 3, 2009 at 11:50 pm
edfromct
If I think of God’s creation of the Earth, and Mankind, as an experiment then than I agree that God did not have to be emotionally invested in man. He would care no more about man, then we care about lab mice.
We as the lab mice might well see our creator as a benevolent being who cares for us, and has our best interest in his heart.
The process of salvation could be thought of as natural selection at work. Temptations are obstacles. The man/mice that can adequately resist temptation, are the best at following the creators rules, are the ones selected to live with the creator, for his amusement perhaps.
However all the above is not how God, or Jesus, is portrayed in the Bible, as least as well as I understand it.
Jesus, although God’s son, had to suffer living 33(?) years as a man. Why would he suffer so much to provide a gift to mankind, if God cared nothing about man?
It would seem to me that if nothing else mankind provides God with the satisfaction of knowing his experiment is working. As least as long as some of us do adequately follow his rules.
November 4, 2009 at 3:23 am
lovewillbringustogether
i agree – your and my explorations in the last few comments are not exactly how people reading the Bible generally tend to see it 🙂
i see a big problem in the fact that humans can only think as a man or woman could, and not as God does, while God is more than capable of thinking the way his creations do so as to try and suggest things to them in ways their limited brains can begin to understand and adapt more to.
The example you mention of Jesus’ suffering 33 years is a case in point. What is a matter of a mere 33 years to God?? to man it is more than a third of their entire living existence – but to God?? A merest speck in the fabric of eternity. To Jesus 33 years of human misery would be as pricking his finger on a rose thorn perhaps? He is on a vastly superior reference frame to us mere mortals.
See the diff?
and i am not so much saying God does not care about man – even down to a one to one level, as much as i am saying man can provide God with nothing that God did not previously have. God has no need of anything from mankind since he is responsible for all it (mankind) possesses.
Saying otherwise is to suggest that God can somehow be ‘improved’ by His own creations and i don’t think many of the true believers would dare raise that blasphemy or try to justify such a position.
God does not experiment – he already knows everything so he has no need – unlike us humans with our mice and mazes – we don’t yet know it all and use mice in experiments to hopefully learn something ‘new’.
We scientists may care about our pet mice’s best interests and establish some form of relationship with them and feel sorry if they get hurt or die and the relationship may possibly give us something we did not have previously since we did not create the mice, just the mazes.
It’s not quite the same with an infinitely powerful and omniscient God who created everything He can see – what can we possibly teach him or improve in Him??.
Should we accept grace form him in order to live a better life here and then in the hereafter?
That’s up to each of us to choose for ourselves.
What sort of mouse would you choose to be – the one who does good and gives the experimenter what he wants so as to get the goodies – or the one who just refuses to play ball and gets the autopsy/dissection?? 😉
isn’t it fortunate God does not act like an experimenter?? 🙂
<B
November 5, 2009 at 1:32 pm
edfromct
(Thanks. I did post this to the wrong post)
I agree, based on my understanding of what I have read about the Christian God, that mankind can’t provide God with anything he doesn’t already have. I could speculate that there must be some reason he gives those, who live by his rules, the opportunity to spend eternity in Heaven with him. He already has angels to serve him. There must be something he finds pleasing in man to want to share eternity with us.
I don’t understand if God causes everything to happen, and knows everything that will happen, what is the point in giving man a free will? God gives mans Grace, but controls the circumstances which will result in our choosing to live by it, or not. If everything is predetermined than to me there is no such thing as free will. To me that would mean we aren’t free, we are slaves.
What is the point in creating our universe? I guess you could say it’s similar to our reading a good book, even when we know the outcome.
If there was life after death then that would give man the hope that no matter how bad his life was now, when we die it will be better. If the reward of Heaven is removed so is almost all of the motivation for a person to surrender their will to God. Of course if God is all powerful then man doesn’t have a will in the first place.
November 5, 2009 at 2:59 am
lovewillbringustogether
i’ll assume your response under re-post love songs was meant to go above this one 🙂
maybe we can find a few places we can find some agreement on?
Starting with creating the Universe. – if you were the only being of your type and lived in total darkness what would you do to keep yourself occupied for a while? create something complex to challenge your creative brain perhaps?
Then what? You don’t want your handiwork to fall apart once you’ve finished (so you set some ‘laws’ in place to make sure it ‘works’ and does not destroy itself or fall apart) and it is not all that exciting once you’ve done all the structural work so you need a ‘distraction’. What is more distracting to us than ‘life’? and we all feel a common need to live life with others – we hate being all alone. We can’t create something ‘equal’ to or superior to us so we create something ‘lesser’ but to keep our massive intellect occupied we make a heck of a lot of them – eventually – and give them a degree of independence to see what they can come up with.
Seem ‘reasonable’? 🙂
As for God ‘causing’ everything to happen and what then would be the point of free will?
God (you) determines in advance what the ‘rules’ of this Universe and everything that lives in it are, but that is not the same as causing EVERYTHING to happen. If he can give part of His creation (part of Himself) ‘freedom of choice’ but within pre-determined consequences of each choice there is then almost infinite complexity capable of being produced and observed for His (your) entertainment and distraction.
Chaos Theory shows very clearly that you need only a very simple (non-complex) starting ‘equation’ (say a human or small group of humans) that with frequent ‘iterations’ (doing something over and over – a ‘generation’ for eg) can provide a virtually infinite ( very complex) set of results or outcomes that can give unexpected or un-anticpated results compared to the starting position and the known ‘rules’ (consequences).
life often results in the unexpected – even though it is generally quite ‘controlled’ and limited. (Compared to God, say)
So we can be given various degrees of freedom while at the same time being very controlled while being also unable to observe our Creator.
As for life after death – i have some thoughts but they will have to wait for another day 🙂
Quickly though i would say that what we choose to do with our life ‘down here’ is very important, not only to ensure we do what is best for all on this planet but also for the life our spirit will have once we croak it.
i think it likely a very big mistake we make in assuming what we do here only lasts till the end of our bodily life and has no ‘follow-on’ effect for the being we are and are also a part of.
There is much more to this life than most give any credit to or can ‘identify’ with our intellect.
<B