Being the Atheist here I have mostly question, and not that many good answers. 
The primary purpose of my Bible study was to understand the guidance so many of my friends live by better. I have learned a great deal so far, which I think you all for.
Today I think I have some pretty good questions.
Do we humans have a completely free will to choose our own destiny, or is our fate preordained by God?
Are we all like actors on a stage, and it’s God who has written the script.? Of course even if we are like actors, we still do experiences all the love, joy, and pain of living, so it might not make any difference if we can’t change the script.
In looking at the 10 verse in Romans 5, I read about the two son’s born of Rebecca, Jacob and Esau. It says before they were born God “according to election” ”calleth” the elder to serve the younger. God loved Jacob, but “hated” Esau. I have read that in the language the Old Testament was written in the word used for “hated” can be interpreted several different ways.
Was Esau’s destiny chosen for him by God, before he was born? I also think of Judas. Was he preordained to betray Jesus?
I have read that God does elected some people to perform specific duties(?). Do these elected people have any control over whether they perform what they have been chosen for?
Romans 5:6-13
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
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November 5, 2009 at 9:05 pm
danielle
Well…isn’t that the question for Christians! They are books and books about this very question. In college I wrote a legnthy paper on the very topic. So because infallable Scripture is seen through the interpretation of man…it depends on who you ask.
I believe that we always have free choice. He has a perfect plan that we can choose to accept or not. He also knows what we will choose…but He will not interfere. In love, He gave us the gift of choice that He hoped, in love, we would submit to His Lordship.
November 6, 2009 at 5:59 pm
edfromct
Free will vs predestination is the kind of theoretical question that ensures that biblical scholars will always have a job.
Since you can’t know your Gods perfect plan for you, I guess the CF is stuck with their sometimes less than perfect choices.
You write your book of life as you live. Only your God knows how it will end.
November 6, 2009 at 11:45 pm
daniellehodgson
His followers can can know His plans if they are truly following and seeking:
Jer. 29:11-13
Jer. 33:3
Romans 8 tells us the children of God are led by His Spirit
And Jesus told us in (I think John 14) that His sheep hear His voice
November 7, 2009 at 12:01 am
edfromct
If you can follow God’s guidance you will know that will lead you salvation. However, that doesn’t mean you will know whether you will follow his guidance in the future.
Do you think God shows you, if you can learn to listen, what your future will be, or rather what your future could be?
November 6, 2009 at 8:43 am
Indian Lake Papa
This gets really complicated – because we really don’t know how God’s mind works. We cannot comprehend that. I am a practical Christian, if it doesn’t make sense, then it doesn’t fit. For example …
God created us for real personal fellowship – but to do that we have to be able to choose, not be puppets on a string. Therefore, if we have choice we can choose our destination. Now that brings up an interesting question, if God is all knowing, does He know what I am going to choose? contrary to popular CF belief, papa doesn’t think so – I think He could but chooses not to. Nope, can’t back that up with scripture, in the sense you would want me to, but there are several times in scripture that events in place changed, because God changed His mind, in other words God had choices to consider as well. The Bible is based on the power of choice of man and – God’s ability to choose as well. Even Christ asked God to choose another plan other than the cross – God apparently could have made a different choice but sent His son to the cross.
I may not have this accurate – but I am right!
November 6, 2009 at 6:14 pm
edfromct
Papa, I am sure you have most of the answers right, where you don’t know we can just ask Mama.
In science, modern theories of physics are based on what is called quantum mechanics. Albert Einstein could not accept not accept many of the concepts of QM saying, “God does not play dice with the universe.”. Einstein did finally accept QM. Maybe God does, as you say, change his mind.
I like the term “practical Christian”. I am asking a theoretical question. The practical answer is we can only try to make the best choices, based on the best guidance we can find. For a CF that is in the Bible, and with prayer.
November 6, 2009 at 10:41 am
ric booth
dang Ed… can’t you find any meaty topics! haha.
I think there’s a big difference between pre-ordained and pre-known (or foreknowledge).
For these discussions, I like to turn to Star Trek (not the most recent movie but most of the other stuff). When they traveled back in time they had to be very careful not to muck with the timeline, lest they muck themselves right out of existence. While back in time, the crew KNOWS exactly what the historical events and characters are suppose to be. They KNOW how the people will choose and what they will do. However, they cannot make that person choose nor can the make the eclipse of the sun occur. They simply know these choices and events will take place.
I believe God exists outside of time. He has been there before the beginning and he has been to the end of creation as well. Jesus’ words are always a mixture of tenses.
For example, “For God so loved the world that he gave is one and only son that whoever believes in him will not perish.” If I wrote for my high school English class like that, my teacher would have tore it up and had me fix it.
Jesus talks about the world and his sacrifice at the cross from the perspective of both are in the past. Then in the same sentence he shifts to active present-tense, not believed but rather believes. And then he closes with a future consequence of the belief, “will not perish.”
So, I think this proves the theology of Star Trek is systemically sound. Except for that last heretical movie, which was very entertaining.
November 6, 2009 at 6:34 pm
edfromct
Ack, another Trekkie!
The Word according to Gene Roddenberry. 
All the Star Trek fans I know loved most of Star Trek 2009, but hated the performance of the guy who played young Kirk, Chris Pine.
That is an interesting point about how in the Bible Jesus spoke in both the present and past tense. It is also true that we humans have a very hard time with trying to understand the concept of time as a dimension. If CF are right than God does exist outside our Universe, our dimension of time, as does Heaven.
I am not sure even God could understand why they chose Chris Pine to play cadet Kirk.
November 8, 2009 at 5:10 am
lovewillbringustogether
I can’t state a definitive answer to that question without a bit more research of Scripture ( like maybe 4 or 5 years and possibly learning Hebrew which may take me longer still) ;-0
but my suspicion based on what i already ‘know’ is Yes, and yes.
God certainly gave us the free-will to not obey Him in any single thing – or not even to believe in Him, should we so wish. However i believe God has preordained the consequences of every possible choice and set of choices we can end up making (‘cos He’s pretty darn smart that way!)
So while we are free to choose we are stuck with the consequences of our choices according to His Plan for mankind.
Don’t believe in God and do nothing to improve His Spirit as it lives with your human body? Fine – you live for a hundred revolutions of the planet around the sun or so then go back to where you came from – end of.
Don’t obey what you know to be His Wil – OK but there are consequences every single time you do that.
Believe in Him and do your utmost to grow in spirit while down here and follow His will as much as you are able to – ok, there will be a different set of consequences for those choices and you may evolve a little in Spirit with God after you ‘die’.
God is a vastly superior intelligence to us and we are as little children at the very best to Him. He both guides us and gives us a near totally free ‘reign’ here on earth – but thuis is as a palyground where we cannot do too much ‘damage’ – to ourselves or to others. The worst we can do is end our short lives prematurely – or that of others.
If we get to ‘Heaven’ we would have the potential to do far far worse things – for eternity.
At least that’s how i see the issue.
i’ve had some part time work myself recently (High School exam supervision) and don’t get the chance to play on the net as often as i did, but i hope to drop by every few days or so.
<B
November 9, 2009 at 11:31 pm
edfromct
Congrats on the temp job. I hope a large nun sized ruler wasn’t part of the exam equipment.
Free will does mean we are 100% responsible for the consequences of our actions.
Preordaining the consequences is of course different form preordaining the results. If string theory is correct than there are mulit universes. Each version of ourselves could make different choices. In another universe Mathew might have been the disciples who betrays Jesus. We might read this in the Book of Judas.
November 11, 2009 at 11:48 am
Michelle
Both.
Both are taught in scripture, so somehow they both are compatible within the mind of God. And since His ways are not our ways, I tend to throw this one into the “mystery” pile. I think this one will make sense on the other side of eternity.
It’s not a satisfactory answer in our puny human minds, but I’m okay with that. The Creator gets to make the rules for the creation…
Was that flippant? I didn’t mean for it to come across that way…sorry.
November 11, 2009 at 10:42 pm
edfromct
In both the world of religious faith, and the world of science. there is no expectation of knowing all the answers to all the questions. The CF has faith that God may answer all their questions when they join him in heaven.
Even as a child I use to drive my Sunday School teachers crazy with questions. When I took catechism classes I think the only reason the priest let me pass was to get rid of me.
This may be one reason I am more comfortable in my world of science.