3) I had a great deal of difficulty following Elihu’s speech in Book 37. What is your interpration of the following?
2 – Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth.
3 – He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
4 - After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard.
18 – Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
19 - Teach us what we shall say unto him; for we cannot order our speech by reason of darkness.
20 - Shall it be told him that I speak? if a man speak, surely he shall be swallowed up.
23 - Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
24 - Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.
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June 18, 2009 at 11:18 pm
lovewillbringustogether
1). I’d agree with you (again!
) – in part here.
We are to understand that there actually are more things going on in the heaven, world and our place in it than just what we focus our rather miniscule ( in the scheme of all things) attention upon. That not everything that happens to us is a direct result of just what we think is important at the time. (That is not to say that some of what happens to us is not predominantly a result of our own action now and in the past).
We are to have Faith that there is one (and only one) entity that is capable of considering all things at once and that it IS ‘in control’ and works according to a consistent pattern and can be ‘trusted’ to keep it’s ‘Laws’ – and that we are in it’s thoughts and care also all the time.
We just need to bear in mind that there are other things that might have a ‘higher’ priority at times.
i think it is more correct to state in 1.b. that not ALL suffering is the direct result of man’s sinfulness in turning away from God in the same way that not everything we enjoy (warm sunny days and beautiful sunsets, the love of a partner or the Joy of our children can bring, etc) is ONLY the result of what we ourselves do.
As to the question, that is something i feel Christianity (the religion/religious dogma) has not explained very well – i am not sure if that is because the religious leaders don’t actually ‘get it’ or they just don’t think (possibly with some basis in truth) that their sheep are intelligent enough to understand so they give them the sugar coated ‘kids’ version??
When we die, our BODIES die – they decay and return to the dust from whence they came – we know this is fact. If our mind has remained ‘trapped’ in our body then we did not learn what we came here to learn and it is ‘game over’ as far as the mind is concerned and ‘our’ consciousness won’t get into ‘heaven’.
What i think we need to realise however is that we do have an eternal spirit within us as we live on earth that can be ‘affected’ by what we experience down here, now if we are able to ‘trust’ in this and actually move our consciousness ‘over’ into this level of being as we live on earth (and thus ‘BE LED’ by the Spirit and not our own self conscience) then that ‘earthly’ consciousness can and will be absorbed into our eternal spirit and we then ‘live’ (in the form we understand as ‘us’ in this world) in an eternal form also – we ‘take our bodies’ with us ‘into’ heaven.
2. and 3. – i might come back to these once i’ve finished my ‘refresher’
<B
June 19, 2009 at 7:44 am
ric booth
Wow… so many questions. I feel like I’m back in school.
Question – If you don’t ever develop that complete trust in God will he deny you the reward of heaven?
If this were true, we’d all be doomed.
One thing I learned from the book of Job, that I love and hate, is that satan has to ask God’s permission.
June 19, 2009 at 2:54 pm
edfromct
Well you don’t have to ask for permission to go the bathroom.
I think you are probably right that not many can claim they can match the faith of Job.
If there was no reward of Heaven, how much would that effect the world of religion? How many of the “faithful” would be willing to make sacrifices out of nothing more than love of God?
Even Satan acknowledges God’s authority. He must seek God approval to test Job. God gives it. I guess you can say that God knew the depth of Job’s trust. What Job went through, and his reward in the end, served as a lesson to mankind. That is primary what the Book of Job is, a lesson to mankind.
My thought is what happens to Job if after all he has suffered he fails God’s test at the end, Job 40 & 41. I guess that would serve as a lesson about God’s power. That’s one reson that even if I believed God existed, I think I would see him as just another ego driven ruler.
June 20, 2009 at 5:01 am
lovewillbringustogether
OK i’ve done some refreshing in Job.
Just going back to your last thought in 1b. of your post: i do not come to the same conclusion. Suffering of man certainly can come about by reason of man’s sin (consequences of our choices actions/inactions) however Original Sin – the first decision to ignore a command of God in favour of one from another source (ultimately our own decision, free-will) was then counted against Man by God and a ‘consequence’ was laid upon Man by Him as a result that was to be born for the rest of his life on Earth. (Genesis 3:16-19) Suffering and sorrow to man and woman were the ordained result and for fear of what man might do in future he was turned out of paradise (Eden)(Ordained of God).
The cause for Job’s suffering was not obvious (to Job,) as ours frequently is not to us ( there’s a warning!)
His three friends thought they saw it when Job was afflicted and was speaking with them about his tribulation and did their best to help him see it (his Pride and arrogance concerning his relationship with God and what it was benefiting him on this earth after he had lost all his wordly ‘goodies’. – Self justification and then failure to see or show others the Majesty and inability to fully understand God’s workings in this life – or our duty and ‘place’ in His Glory).
While Eliphaz, Bildar and Zohab all saw different aspects of this Truth , none were able to state what was required to make Job see his sin for Himself – only Elihu, through adopting the spirit of God Himself upon him, was able to do that – the answers we seek are found in Him – not in us. He is Just and judges us – our judgement is perpetually flawed unless it is through us, but all From Him, who is wise and rules over ALL.
That was their eror and not that of Elihu – they tried to use human judgement on Job as Job did on himself – Elihu sought the Judgement of God First and spoke it to Job who saw it for what it was and then heard The Lord speaking to him and repented.
Once Job Repented ( saw the Light) he was rewarded with double.
There is a common theme here
God’s Will – not ours. Ours is so much less than is useful for our true benefit.
<B
June 21, 2009 at 7:22 pm
edfromct
“Suffering and sorrow to man and woman were the ordained result and for fear of what man might do in future he was turned out of paradise (Eden)(Ordained of God).”
Are you saying all of the suffering mankind has endured is a consequence of disobeying God and being thrown out of Eden? I can see the logic in that line of thought.
I an not clear where Job acted with arrogance, or pride, in how be behaved after he lost his family and all his worldly goods.
Job 1:22 22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
Job 2:10 shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
He did curse is fate in Job 3. 3Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived. 4Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.
Is this a sufficient display to be regarded as either arrogance or pride. Was he supposed to thank God for all that had befallen him? Should he have accepted that he was, in some way, responsible for his suffering, and prayed to God for forgiveness? In the last chapter he did repent, 42 6Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
While I doubt I could understand many of the words, or verses, in themselves, I can see the lesson the Book of Job tries to teach. While God does allow suffering, he is not responsible for it. To question God as to why he allows us to suffer is a sin. We can never understand the actions of God. He is all powerful. He will punish the sinner, but will also reward those who live by his law.
June 22, 2009 at 12:06 am
lovewillbringustogether
Are you saying all of the suffering mankind has endured is a consequence of disobeying God and being thrown out of Eden? I can see the logic in that line of thought.
i was going to say that, but could not read that directly from Genesis – Only Adam and Eve’s suffering was a direct result of their own sins agianst God. Adam though is often used ans an analogy for mankind and i believe our suffering is a direct consequence of choosing to do our own will OVER that which God would have us do. in addition we can suffer as a result of those who desire to do evil towards us.
Job 1:22 says in all that had happened before he did not sin (in all he had done and all his worldly goods and family being taken from him)
However when Satan afflicts Him physically Job’s sin starts to become apparent: he goes on a long diatribe in which he justifies himself and bemoans his fate it’s all i,i,i, me,me,me – it becomes more about him than about His God and in THAT he sins and ultimately because of Elihu and God’s words recognises his sin and repents – the sin was within him and came out when Satan severly tested his Faith in God.
in this particular case (of a man MOST favoured of God) God was boasting to Satan over Job His servant Job was not sinning and his suffering was a result of Satan’s acts taken with God’s permission, however it was shown us that even a very ‘holy’ man was able to give in to his own sin and turn from god when ‘tested’ and we should take the lesson to heart – do not turn away from God, no matter what the trials, from wheresoever they may come.
Most will come from our own actions when we do not follow Him totally, but sometimes things happen to us for reasons that may not be from our direct actions. Even so, God will always be watching and ready to offer us a way out and reward our repentence.
<B
June 22, 2009 at 4:43 pm
edfromct
As you say sometimes we cause our own suffering, through our own actions, and sometimes it results from something we have no control over, such as being born in a war zone.
It must be comforting to believe that God is always watching over you. That no matter the circumstances you find yourself in, he will reward you, either in this world or the next, if you live by his guidance.
Job was not responsible for his misfortune. He was responsible for giving cry out and bemoaning his fate. However in the end he recognizes his sin and repents.
June 20, 2009 at 5:08 am
lovewillbringustogether
forgive the wordy replies
as for 2.?
i think the language, the poetry almost of the whole Book of Job is ‘inspirational’, but i guess the kicker has to be the last 2 chaps where Job sees the futility of ‘challenging God’ and in giving up when all seems to him to be hopeless and the subsequent reward he receives once he can see why he was wrong to feel the way he did (pride/ego).
I kinda liked where ‘young’ Elihu becomes ‘wise’ beyond his years and gains in wisdom through letting God speak through him – after he has let all the ‘wise old men’ have their say.
<B
June 20, 2009 at 5:15 am
lovewillbringustogether
As for 3.
i confess, in my refresh (as well as in my original read) sometimes i found it very hard to get what the heck was going on???
however, to answer your q i feel all that is being said is (in terms that meant more to the readers in the day it was written, to the Jews of Moses ‘era’) is trying to give the ‘viewer’ ( and Job as the ‘man of the day’) some kind of concept of just how different and superior in all ways God is to us puny mortals.
i think the last line is saying we are not wise by our ‘own’ counsel – of wisdom that is of man’s body (own heart) and not his Spirit. (from ‘outside of any man)
<B
June 21, 2009 at 8:10 pm
edfromct
While I can’t understand many of the verses in Elihu’s speech in chapters 36 and 37, I can clearly see the meaning behind them.
That, as you say, we can never understand God. That wisdom should come from our Spirit. God’s wisdom, not man’s.
I was reading an article about the sacrilegious, but still funny, Monty Python Movie “Life of Brian”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_life_of_brian
In one scene Brian is giving his sermon on the mount. He says, “Blessed are those who are poor in spirit.” What the crowd thinks he says is, “Blessed are those who fall into syrup.” Since it is “Brian” speaking the crowd gets into a big discussion on the meaning of “falling into syrup”.
June 22, 2009 at 12:31 am
lovewillbringustogether
Blessed are the Cheese-makers???
i LOVED that film.
(what did the Romans ever do for us??)
Clearly those who fall into syrup are ’sweet’ and especially flavoured of God.
<B
June 20, 2009 at 5:29 am
lovewillbringustogether
As for your thought about Job going through it all and then ‘failing’…
What does it matter either way??
The whole point is that we are not to give in to our own ‘temptations( sins) to go against the might power and unfathomability of God, but just to Trust and give glory to Him in ALL things, good or bad – neither really matters what we ‘receive’, only that we LEARN from it the ONE Truth.
It matters if we deliberately choose ‘evil’ over ‘Good’ as there are clear consequences to our actions, but following God and not our own ego’s is what is important, not that we are rewarded or punished.
It’s not what we end up getting – it’s what we Become and DO that is important – regardless of the circumstances we find happening to us here on Earth! What we choose to become and do is UP TO US – and we are the ones who earn the consequences of our choices – not God.
As the book of Job says – what do we give to God if we are good? or what does it hurt him if we do not? We can do nothing ‘to’ Him or ‘for’ Him.
We do it for our eternal Spirit that we live with Him or die without Him.
He Was, Is and Always will be – we don’t ‘add’ anything to Him or ‘take’ anything from Him that He does not so ordain.
He wants us to do it for US, not for Him – where is that the thoughts of an egotistical maniac ruler?
Everything is done for OUR benefit – not His, and that includes Praise and Worship, trial and tribulation, reward and punishment, Hope and Glory to keep everything in the right ‘perspective’/priority as it should be.
Again – i do agree with you – The Book of Job is a very strong lesson for Mankind… if a little hard to decipher in some places
<B
June 21, 2009 at 7:52 pm
edfromct
“The whole point is that we are not to give in to our own ‘temptations( sins) to go against the might power and unfathomability of God, but just to Trust and give glory to Him in ALL things, good or bad – neither really matters what we ‘receive’, only that we LEARN from it the ONE Truth.”
That is clearly the lesson of Job.
“As the book of Job says – what do we give to God if we are good? or what does it hurt him if we do not? We can do nothing ‘to’ Him or ‘for’ Him.”
“Everything is done for OUR benefit – not His, and that includes Praise and Worship, trial and tribulation, reward and punishment, Hope and Glory to keep everything in the right ‘perspective’/priority as it should be.
I agree that as an all powerful being here is nothing we can do that will help, or hurt God. However when you “Praise and Worship” God isn’t that feeding his ego? When we don’t obey his law he punishes us, we have made him mad. It seems to me that by our actions we do effect his emotions, make him either mad, or make him feel loved. Otherwise why would he care enough about how we behave to either reward or punish us?
I guess I fluked the lesson of Job.
June 22, 2009 at 12:26 am
lovewillbringustogether
i don’t think you would be in a minority Ed
i don’t think any of us have fully ‘passed’ the ‘lesson’ of Job
i feel you are making God in your (or perhaps a human father’s ) image?
You make assumptions as a human and place them upon God’s ‘motives’ i don’t agree with your conclusions in that and offer the following alternative interpretation…
Praise and worship is not ‘for’ Him, ‘to make Him Happy’ – we have already agreed noting we do gives a thing to Him or takes anything ‘from’ Him.
We are to praise and worship Him so that WE gain from it; it re-inforces in our human mind and spiritual beings the correct priority of Him over us and prevents us from feeling like we are the ones who deserve all praise over He who is above all.
When we don’t obey the law it is not Him that is punishing us – it is us getting our just deserts as a natural consequence of a ‘law of Nature’ that God has set in place for the benefit of all creation. We reap what we sow.
if we sow the seeds of our supplanting God we must receive the natural and Just correction for this pride and arrogance above our own place in the scheme of things.
Unlike some of us God does not punish because we make him ‘mad’, angry. We get our punishment because there is a law that says if you do wrong you don’t deserve to be rewarded. it is a just, righteous and fair law and applies to all of us ‘equally’ ( although many of us don’t see how as sometimes we see people doing wrong and ‘getting away with it’
They will receive their ‘reward’. Not all things are apparent in this life.
i believe God is a God of Love – that he can love us despite our faults – but unlike us humans He will not give favour to those he loves if they do not do what is required of the entirity of His Creation. He does not reward kids with a lolly if they smash a valuable ornament. he just ensures we learn to take responsibility for our actions by ensuring we are very sure of our proper place in the scheme of things and do not get too full of our position as a child of God.
we are so very poor at understanding this and our egos grow bigger and bigger putting us at ever greater ‘risk’.
<B
June 22, 2009 at 5:22 pm
edfromct
You are correct that I am thinking of God in similar terms as that of a human father.
“We are to praise and worship Him so that WE gain from it; it re-inforces in our human mind and spiritual beings the correct priority of Him over us and prevents us from feeling like we are the ones who deserve all praise over He who is above all.’
I can see your point. My questions is to what degree does God’s guidance require you to worship him? I am thinking of all the resources, cathedrals, being committed to worshiping him.
Since I don’t worship God, or even believe he exist, I have no expectations of being rewarded by him. If I commit a sin against someone I expect to be punished. If I break the laws of the society I live in I expect to be punished. If however the extent of my “sin” is in not worshiping God, and he still punishes me, condemns me to everlasting hell, than I do see him as acting like any father/dictator.
I can also see where believers worship God, and choose to commit time and money to this worship, out of love of God, whether they are required to or not. Placing God, or anyone above us, does help us learn to deal with our own pride and ego.
June 20, 2009 at 8:45 am
Rain
What I love about the book of Job and many books in the Old testament, is the way people saw God in everything. They ascribed everything to God. They knew that anyhting good came from, and since God is Almighty, they also understood that no evil occurs without God allowing it. It shows a different aspect o God all together. It shows His awesome power and might, and that He is the God who is in everything and is above everything.
It takes my breath away.
My favourite part of Job is the last few chapters, where first the power of God is proclaimed by man:
“INDEED, [at His thunderings] my heart also trembles and leaps out of its place.
2Hear, oh, hear the roar of His voice and the sound of rumbling that goes out of His mouth!
3Under the whole heaven He lets it loose, and His lightning to the ends of the earth.
4After it His voice roars; He thunders with the voice of His majesty, and He restrains not [His lightnings against His adversaries] when His voice is heard.
5God thunders marvelously with His voice; He does great things which we cannot comprehend.
6For He says to the snow, Fall on the earth; likewise He speaks to the showers and to the downpour of His mighty rains.
7God seals up (stops, brings to a standstill by severe weather) the hand of every man [and now under His seal their hands are forced to inactivity], that all men whom He has made may know His doings (His sovereign power and their subjection to it).
8Then the beasts go into dens and remain in their lairs.
9Out of its chamber comes the whirlwind, and cold from the scattering winds.
10By the breath of God ice is given, and the breadth of the waters is frozen over.
11He loads the thick cloud with moisture; He scatters the cloud of His lightning.
12And it is turned round about by His guidance, that they may do whatever He commands them upon the face of the habitable earth.
13Whether it be for correction or for His earth [generally] or for His mercy and loving-kindness, He causes it to come.
14Hear this, O Job; stand still and consider the wondrous works of God.
15Do you know how God lays His command upon them and causes the lightning of His [storm] cloud to shine?
16Do you know how the clouds are balanced [and poised in the heavens], the wonderful works of Him Who is perfect in knowledge?
17[Or] why your garments are hot when He quiets the earth [in sultry summer] with the [oppressive] south wind?
18Can you along with Him spread out the sky, [which is] strong as a molten mirror?
19Tell us [Job] with what words of man we may address such a Being; we cannot state our case because we are in the dark [in the presence of the unsearchable God].
20So shall it be told Him that I wish to speak? If a man speaks, shall he be swallowed up?
21And now men cannot look upon the light when it is bright in the skies, when the wind has passed and cleared them.
22Golden brightness and splendor come out of the north; [if men can scarcely look upon it, how much less upon the] terrible splendor and majesty God has upon Himself!
23Touching the Almighty, we cannot find Him out; He is excellent in power; and to justice and plenteous righteousness He does no violence [He will disregard no right].
24Men therefore [reverently] fear Him; He regards and respects not any who are wise in heart [in their own understanding and conceit].”
And then God himself speaks to Job in chapter 38,39, 40, 41 and I love how God ask Jobs a series of questions about where Job was when the world was created and about creation (ok I won’t put the whole chapter here again, but it’s very good!)
The whole point of everything:
Everything under the heavens is Mine; therefore, who can have a claim against God?
And Job’s response (as should ours be):
I know that You can do all things, and that no thought or purpose of Yours can be restrained or thwarted.
June 21, 2009 at 2:51 pm
edfromct
I can see where when a believer comes to fully accept that God is at the center of everything is a moment that can take your breath away. It becomes easy to see God when you come to believe He is everywhere.
It is human nature to questions why things happen to you. The lesson in Job is that you need to stop trying to understand why God has allowed something to happen, good or evil, and accept that He is beyond your understanding.
Job 37:23 & 24 (King James Version)
23Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
24Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.
I suspect one reason I am unlikley to every become a follower of God is because I always ask questions. I drove my poor religious instructors crazy.
I think the only reason I passed religious classes was because that just wanted me out of their hair. 
June 22, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Rain
Ed, I don’t think God minds if we ask questions if our heart is sincere and we are earnestly seeking truth.
June 21, 2009 at 11:33 pm
lovewillbringustogether
i’m not sure i’d completely agree with you that the lesson of Job is to stop trying to understand why God has allowed some things to happen… i’d say it is more like we should TRUST thatGod knows why and not trust only in our own understanding as it is so small when compared to His – that there is far more to our lives than what we are able to figure out or find out for ourselves. Therefore we are unlikely to ever see all the factors at once that determine what happens to us.
God does tell us to keep on asking questions – to not accept things completely upon trust ( as there are bad spirits in this world who cannot be trusted) and we cannot ever rely solely upon our own judgement but should trust His over our own.
I keep on searching for answers in all things and He is Faithful to provide them for me.
If you want answers – there is an ultimate source even better than Google and Wikipedia
<B
June 22, 2009 at 3:55 pm
edfromct
Rain & Love, my perception is then that God doesn’t mind us asking questions to better learn how to follow his guidance, and find our place in this world.
It is when you question his judgment that you have to watch out for lightning bolts.
June 23, 2009 at 2:06 am
lovewillbringustogether
By George – i think he’s got it !
(and when you put your thoughts as being more important than the ones He has ‘for you’. eg if we think that it is all down to ‘me’ – that i am responsible for what i have achieved in my life and nothing happens to me that i have not ‘created’ – that is somewhat ‘unrealistic’).
<B
June 23, 2009 at 4:38 pm
edfromct
It is not only unrealistic but impossible for everything we have achieved in life to be solely down to us.
Anyone who really thinks they have complete control over whatever success they have obtained in life must be the world’s biggest egotist, and blind as well.
I do have a rather large ego, but not quite that big.
Of course I see many hands have helped me, not one big one.
June 24, 2009 at 2:40 am
lovewillbringustogether
We ALL have ego problems i believe Ed
i don’t know of many (any?) people who have their ego’s in anything like a ‘true’ proportion with respect to the Universe (if you have read Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy you may be aware that the last thing a sentient being can afford to have is a true sense of perspective and their place in the Universe)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Perspective_Vortex#Total_Perspective_Vortex
i’m assuming you also understand and appreciate that the entire rest of the universe has had some ’say’ in your success also, not just other human beings??
and if you recognise that, it is but a small ’step’ over to a faith in God.
the input into the things which have formed ‘my life’ has come much more from ‘everything that is not me’ than ‘me’. ( ie. ‘God’)
No giant ‘leap’ required, merely a switch of perspectives.
<B
June 24, 2009 at 5:24 pm
edfromct
I agree with your view on having the right perspective.
The only part of my successes I can lay claim to is based on the degree to which I could control the circumstance.
I had nothing to do with creating the universe, world, country, or family I was born into. These dictate the opportunities I will have, and the degree of control I have over them.
I am a very small cog in a very big wheel. I can contribute very little to how well the wheel works. However, how successfully I do my part will have an effect, even if small, on the overall efficiency with which the wheel works.
I am both insignificant and important.
How much confidence we place in our faith depends on the impact faith has had on our lives.
The more we must rely on trust, the greator the leap of faith is.
June 25, 2009 at 1:18 am
lovewillbringustogether
i am in LARGE agreement with your last comment
i would add though that for most of us ( ok all of us) the importance we have to ‘our lives ‘ is far greater than the importance we have to the rest of the Universe taken as a whole
It’ll pretty much carry on as usual with or without us – our pride gives us a somewhat skewed version of this. (some of us far more than others – i’m sure you have met some of the people i mean).
Also i would view from a slightly differing perspective your thought of the last line above…
if we ‘must’ rely upon Trust then i see your point, but i don’t think it applies if we CAN rely more and more upon trust and learn to build up our trust and therefore our Faith/Hope.
If we feel that ‘trust’ (not reality) is ALL we have then that will make it harder to manage to achieve that ‘leap’.
Sometimes a movement in perspective allows us to see that we CAN trust in something more than we ever thought we could before.
it is a very personal thing though and not something one person is likely to be able to show someone else (when it comes to trusting in God i mean). Not unless and untill something ‘major’ happens in our life.
Generally that something major requires a very severe situation or event to be experienced and i do not wish that on you or anyone – even if sometimes He ensures it happens!
<B
June 25, 2009 at 6:04 pm
edfromct
I agree that trust is something that can grow over time, but first we must be willing to risk that first step.
The first leap is the longest. If our faith survives that, then the distance of each subsequent leap becomes smaller.