I did a google search for Bible passages that deal with hope. I selected the following:
Romans 8:22 – 25 (New International Version)
22- We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
23- Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardley as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
24- For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all, Who hopes for what he already has?
25- But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
I pick these passages because of the parts I don’t understand.
It is the hope that you can be redeemed (your soul can be redeemed?) that can “save” you. If you are saved than you will join God in heaven when you die. You won’t know if you have been saved until you are judged by God at our death. You must wait patiently for this redemption. It is this hope that will sustain your faith.
Questions:
“we, ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the spirit” Firstfruits implies that are more than one fruit of the Spirit, we humans being the first. I was taught that we humans are the only living things with a soul.
“We eagerly await our adoption as sons”. If you accept God’s guidance/plan aren’t you saved, adopted, while you are alive. Does the fact that you can’t know God’s judgement mean you can’t know if you really have been saved until after you die?
“But hope that is seen is no hope at all, Who hopes for what he already has?”
“But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.”
What you are hoping for is to be redeemed. Is this going back to the point that you can’t know if you will be redeemed until after you die. You must wait patiently until you are judged by God?
My question point out the reason I was amazed that I passed Bible study class. Maybe the priest just couldn’t face having me back for more lessons. 
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April 22, 2009 at 10:24 pm
danielle
Ed,
Hope is such a great study. Our pastor preached on it Sunday and my husband and I studied it out a bit.
Believers CAN be confident of their salvation before death. When the Apostle Paul (the author) wrote those things about “redemption” and “adoption” he was talking of the full redemption of our bodies. While our spirts can NOW be redeemed, our bodies and souls are still “fallen”. We will not be fully redeemed until eternity. We are waiting patiently for that final and complete restoration of body, soul and spirit.
Hope, we must understand, is not a wishing, but a confident expectation.
Concerning firstfruits, that is not talking of the spirit within man. What Paul means by “having the first fruits of the Spirit” (notice the uppercase “S”) is that NOW, on this side of eterntiy, we have a glimpse, or first fruit, of what it is like to be in communication with and in the presence of the Spirit of God.
Ed, these are some great questions. There are entire classes built around these single questions.
April 23, 2009 at 1:59 am
edfromct
Thanks for the clarification Danielle.
For hope to be able to sustain faith it does need to be “confident expectation”. I can see that in the passion which Christ Followers demonstrate in their worship of God.
I understand better the meaning of “first fruits” in this context. It is the first glimpse of what it will be like to be in the presence of God in Heaven.
Questions:
“While our spirts can NOW be redeemed, our bodies and souls are still “fallen”.”
I have always be a bit confused over the difference between “our spirit” and “our soul”. How is your spirit redeemed, but your soul not?
You remain “fallen” until God judges your redemption after death?
April 23, 2009 at 10:41 am
danielle
Ed,
We are a three part being: body, soul and spirit. I Thess 5.23
Our spirit is the eternal part of us, the part that knows there is “something more”, the part that communicates with God, the part that is made perfect by faith in the blood of Jesus.
We live in our body or “flesh” as Scripture often refers to it. That is the part that will die. The flesh desires to satisfy its desires: sex, food, selfishness. So, in this part, our bodies do remain fallen, but will be made new, until after death.
Our soul is made of our mind, will and emotions. The soul is constantly being pulled between our spirit and body. Romans 12:2 says that we are to “renew our minds (part of the soul)” so that we are changed for the good. In essence, we determine that amount that our souls are redeemed by the choices we make…if we use our wills, minds and emotions for the will of God or for selfish choices.
April 23, 2009 at 4:39 pm
edfromct
Danielle, your reply does clarify the difference between the Spirit, flesh/body, and soul.
“Our spirit is the eternal part of us, the part that knows there is “something more”, the part that communicates with God, the part that is made perfect by faith in the blood of Jesus.”
You are saying we are born with both a spirit and a soul, whether we acknowledge them or not. The spirit knows there is something beyond the world we live in.
When you say the spirit is made perfect by faith in God, that means the spirit is made stronger as/if we develop faith in God.
When you pray your are communicating with God through your spirit. Your decision to seek God through prayer is being made by your soul.
“We live in our body or “flesh” as Scripture often refers to it. That is the part that will die. The flesh desires to satisfy its desires: sex, food, selfishness. So, in this part, our bodies do remain fallen, but will be made new, until after death.”
We remain fallen because our desires of the flesh are always there. They will continue to tempt us until we join God in Heaven.
I can relate more to the desires of the flesh because this is something I have had a lot of experience with.
I will read Thess 5.23 when I get the chance.
April 23, 2009 at 2:44 am
lovewillbringustogether
My thoughts concerning the ‘questions’:
“we who have Firstfruits of the Spirit…”
Adam was the First man described in the Bible and had God ‘Breathe life into him’, being formed from the earth (and to which he was to return – Genesis 3:19)
Jesus was God’s Fisrtborn – containing the firstfruit of the Spirit. I see Paul describing those like himself whom he saw had received the Gift of the Comforter Christ had promised could be theirs – the Gift of the Holy Spirit within them – the firstfruits of the Spirit existing within those who truly lived IN Christ and not in the way of the body of flesh as so many before Him did and still do today.
While there is yet life in our body, there is the chance for fall and rebellion. Lucifer was not made evil but became it – we who are so familiar with error and sin, being less than infinite and therefore less than perfect, even if we successfully accept His Firstfruit and attempt to live by His Spirit and not our own body’s will, will not know how successful we have been in becoming saved until we face His Judgement – but we may have Hope that we are saved, at least until he shows us otherwise. Without Christ and the Spirit He allowed to be offered us there is little if any Hope of being redeemed, particularly if we only see to follow the letter, not the Spirit, of the Law.
“But hope that is seen is no hope at all, Who hopes for what he already has?”
You can take this quite literally – what is the point of simply hoping for what you already possess? – or you can view it in a quite different light…
2 Cor 5:7 helps this understanding Paul had: For we walk by faith, not by sight. ( Christians are to see by HIS Light where we are to put our feet of clay, not use our own ‘sight’ to see where we want to ‘go’ – they are to be led by His Spirit existing deep within us at their core, not follow only what they can see with their own eyes).
Being led by His Spirit as we walk our Path in life and not our own eyes – the way our body sees things – Gives us such Hope that we can overcome sin and receive the full adoption as a Son of God in Spirit, Body, and Soul, in His Time.
“But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.”
Merely receiving the Gift as we live this earthly life does not ensure we instantly become ‘perfect’ , fully knowing how to live IN Christ such that we become adopted into His family in our final resting place.
To do so requires constant perseverance and practice (works – for Faith without works is dead) on our part until we learn how to do nothing But follow His Will, His Spirit’s leading over our own self.
The purpose of a fruit tree is not to bring forth only the First Fruit – but to provide many fruits – those fruits are designed by Him to bring forth more trees – and sustenance for other life than merely it’s own. The seeds it contains may live on after the fruit no longer exists. God’s plan has many layers other than the ones we ‘see’.
To ‘redeem’ literally means to buy back. Also to obtain the release or restoration of, as from captivity, by paying a ransom.
Mankind’s captivity was assured according to Genesis by Adam’s eating the apple and disobeying God. God Himself paid that ransom through His Son’s Death so that we all might live eternally again through Him. We do not find out if we have ‘personally’ been redeemed until after we no longer have an ability to disobey Him again – after we die on this earth.
Only then can we know we are given new Bodies and eternal Life, not ones that must suffer death and corruption, by design.
I thank you sincerely for the opportunity to form these ideas within me, and then to express them for any to read.
<B
April 23, 2009 at 10:48 am
danielle
Love,
You wrote “the firstfruits of the Spirit existing within those who truly lived IN Christ and not in the way of the body of flesh as so many before Him did and still do today”
and
“Being led by His Spirit as we walk our Path in life and not our own eyes – the way our body sees things – Gives us such Hope that we can overcome sin and receive the full adoption as a Son of God in Spirit, Body, and Soul, in His Time.”
Great thoughts, very encouraging. I enjoyed reading your thoughts of eternity, hope, seeds and more. Thanks for taking the time to share. Isn’t it great how we are all able to share comfortably and all come with such different perspectives!
Have a great day, “ya’ll”
April 25, 2009 at 5:42 am
lovewillbringustogether
Danielle indeed it is
I do wish though that (for balance) there might be a few more like our Friend Ed joining this discussion who see things a little more ‘outside’ of the way we might?
I hope Ed does not suspect we are ganging up on him
I also am grateful for your input concerning Body Soul and Spirit as it is giving me much to consider in a way i had not done so before.
My Science background gave me a very good understanding of the strictly physical world, which many see as the only true existence yet proven.
My personal discovery of Scripture and other works, including some of those termed ‘The Dead Sea Scrolls’ as well as Historical information and other people’s observations have helped me develop a stronger connection to and understanding of the Spiritual World that is essential to an understanding of God (albeit somewhat limited by our mind/body situation)
Now i am trying to see how our Soul fits into the picture – Spirit? Physical? something in between? or something separate again, and, as Ed was ‘taught’ – Unique to mankind?
1Thessalonians 5:23 is the ONLY verse in the Bible i can find where body, soul AND spirit are mentioned together?
Prior to Jesus being mentioned there is only ever the words body and soul mentioned in single verses, or soul and ‘life’ – meaning physical life that can be ended by man or thing or God while only God can destroy and end the soul. There are many warnings before the NT of the soul being cut off from Israel if various laws are broken by man and the heart and soul are not devoted to The Lord. heart and soul or life and soul are mentioned together, but prior to Jesus and 1 Thess 5 no mention i can see of spirit and body and soul – although soul and spirit and on one occasion ( Dan 7:15) body and spirit are mentioned?
I need more research into this.
<B
April 23, 2009 at 5:38 pm
edfromct
“Jesus was God’s Fisrtborn – containing the firstfruit of the Spirit.” Jumping ahead:
“The purpose of a fruit tree is not to bring forth only the First Fruit – but to provide many fruits – those fruits are designed by Him to bring forth more trees – and sustenance for other life than merely it’s own. The seeds it contains may live on after the fruit no longer exists. God’s plan has many layers other than the ones we ’see’.”
In this context the Spirit is like a tree. Jesus being the “firstfruit”. Faith in God is what feeds this tree. As faith grows this is the Spirit bearing more fruit.
“But hope that is seen is no hope at all, Who hopes for what he already has?”
“2 Cor 5:7 helps this understanding Paul had: For we walk by faith, not by sight.” “Being led by His Spirit as we walk our Path in life and not our own eyes – the way our body sees things – Gives us such Hope that we can overcome sin and receive the full adoption as a Son of God in Spirit, Body, and Soul, in His Time.”
The hope “that is seen” is referring to what we see with our eyes. Using faith in God, seeing with our Spirit not our eyes, to guide us we can overcome sin and experince “full adoption” as a son of God, “in his time”.
“But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.”
“Mankind’s captivity was assured according to Genesis by Adam’s eating the apple and disobeying God. God Himself paid that ransom through His Son’s Death so that we all might live eternally again through Him. We do not find out if we have ‘personally’ been redeemed until after we no longer have an ability to disobey Him again – after we die on this earth.”
I can relate to poor Adam giving in to temptation. I have meet more than a few Eves (not sure of the plural of Eve), and snakes, in my life.
Thank you for increasing my understand of the faith that guides so many of my friends.
April 23, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Rain
Hi Ed,
The way I see it is that we are now saved, redeemed in Jesus. Because when He died that is what He made possible for us. In accepting Jesus Christ the Bible says we ‘have become the righteousness of God’ 2 Cor 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. I find that so amazing!
But, and this is only my own interpretation, we do not fully realise what this means and so we continue to live in the world as redeemed sinners, struggling with sin, hoping for the day of Jesus’ return so that we may be complete in Him. I like the parallel of your verses (verse 22) with earlier verses from 2 Cor 5 (1-10)
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
—–
I think that explains the ‘hope’ that we have and the ‘struggle’ quite well.
April 23, 2009 at 7:06 pm
edfromct
“The way I see it is that we are now saved, redeemed in Jesus. Because when He died that is what He made possible for us. In accepting Jesus Christ the Bible says we ‘have become the righteousness of God’ 2 Cor 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. I find that so amazing!”
For Your God to sacrifice his son, so that makind can be saved, is a truely amazing gift
“and this is only my own interpretation,”
My perception is that your understanding of God’s guidance, that you base(?) your faith on, must come from your own interpration, as guided by your Spirit. You will need help from others with more experience people in studying God’s guidance, but the final understanding must be your own.
“we do not fully realise what this means and so we continue to live in the world as redeemed sinners, struggling with sin, hoping for the day of Jesus’ return so that we may be complete in Him.”
Is it your interpration that Jesus may return to this world, or do you mean we will become complete, our Spirit will be perfect, when we pass his final judgement and join him in Heaven?
“Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.” “For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.”
The world you live in was built by human hands and you long, groan, to be in God’s building, Heaven.
“Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”
When we can feel, experience in some way, our Spirit then we can be confident in our faith of God.
“We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.”
You live by God’s guidance because you are confident that if you do you will pass God’s judgement after your die. You will live in his building, Heaven.
If we don’t feel this Spirit the Bible says is within us all, than I don’t see how someone can have a confident faith in God. We could be hopeful, but not confident.
April 23, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Rain
Ha, I only now read the comments, seems Love and I had the same idea! Oh well, nothing wrong with a double dose of 2 Cor 5!
April 23, 2009 at 7:08 pm
edfromct
I will read 2 Cor 5, which you and Love have referenced.
I’ll see if a single does is enough.
April 25, 2009 at 2:13 am
lovewillbringustogether
He-heh! – Great Minds (and hearts) think alike!
<B
April 27, 2009 at 10:19 am
Rain
“My perception is that your understanding of God’s guidance, that you base(?) your faith on, must come from your own interpration, as guided by your Spirit.”
I don’t really know Ed, I just know that for a long time I believed everything anyone said. Some people pretty much rewrote the Bible and I believed it! I was naive. Now I take everything anyone says with a pinch of salt, and read the Bible and try to understand it to the best of my ability.
“Is it your interpration that Jesus may return to this world, or do you mean we will become complete, our Spirit will be perfect, when we pass his final judgement and join him in Heaven?”
The way I understand it Jesus will return to earth to create a new world where He will rule. That is when there will be no pain and crying. Until such time, we hope for that time when we will be able to live daily in His presence (which in itself is confusing because it would seem that we can if we believe and want it enough (?) live that way now, on earth), but certainly when He returns to earth.
“If we don’t feel this Spirit the Bible says is within us all, than I don’t see how someone can have a confident faith in God. We could be hopeful, but not confident.”
This is true. I am not always aware of the presence of God, but my spirit is always alive. I compare this to when I felt nothing and the Bible meant nothing to me, at some point, when my conversion was real, my spirit became alive and I am always aware of that now, and it is a most precious gift, even when I am not aware of His presence.
April 27, 2009 at 6:10 pm
edfromct
“Now I take everything anyone says with a pinch of salt, and read the Bible and try to understand it to the best of my ability.”
I think your faith can only be based on your own understand of what it is.
“The way I understand it Jesus will return to earth to create a new world where He will rule ”
I hope you are right. I can’t say I want to be ruled by anyone. Jesus however is as good of a role model as anyone in history. If we all lived as he did the world would be a much better place.
“I compare this to when I felt nothing” “my spirit became alive and I am always aware of that now, and it is a most precious gift, even when I am not aware of His presence.”
Being without spirit is like being dead. I am very happy to read you have found yours.
April 28, 2009 at 4:29 am
lovewillbringustogether
AS i think Rain, and most, if not all, the Christians we know through blogging and elsewhere would agree.. Finding/accepting into us that Spirit can not be done by listening only to other humans – it comes from God and God alone.
it is an intensely personal experience and is likely somewhat different to each one of us as our lives have all had differing experiences/reactions to those.
i would be very wary of anyone who told me they could lead me to God, but would rather pay attention to how He seems to live within them and then seek the same for myself, asking for advice if and as when i felt such was necessary by reason of any inability to live according to His Ideal i felt or others were able to show me in myself.
Our minds are such that it is possible for us to be self-deluded and also too easy for us to follow what we think is right because someone in Authority tells us such-and-such.
WE therefore need to not live in isolation from one another so as to better be able to tell if we are simply deluding ourself through imperfect understandings, but also to not take other people’s thoughts TOO seriously into ourselves in case they are also in error.
it is a fine balance we need to seek to get to the Truth contained in the richness of human society and His Wisdom.
I am happy that you are helping me in my search for Truth and am thankful for your ability to sharpen my own understanding each day through mutual discussion and consideration of an alternative viewpoint!
<B