(Warning – Religious Rant)
The best human interest show I listen to is “This American Life”, a radio show out of Chicago whose podcast I subscribe to, http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ .
The December 5 show was about Pentecostal Bishop Carlton Pearson, of the United Church Of Christ, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_Pearson . Bishop Pearson was a portege of Oral Roberts and spoke at the White House.
While watching a television show about famine in Africa he said he had an epiphany. As he watch a story of hell on earth, he understood that God could not be a monster who could create a burning hell for the billions of lost souls, as his religion doctrine had taught him.
Bishop began to preach a new gospel where there was no Hell. He was branded a heretic and lost his influence and most of his congregation. He now preaches his ”Gospel of Inclusion” at the New Dimensions Church in Tulsa. http://www.newdimensions.us/
I don’t believe in life after death, so “Hell” does not exist to me, except for the far too many examples of the man-made hell of war and famine we have created on earth.
The idea that a child, before it even takes it’s first breath, is a sinner, and if not baptized, will spend eternity in hell is one of the more monstrous ideas religion offers.
If the God that my family and friends talk about did create a Hell where billions of souls spend eternity burning, then he really would be the monster that Bishop Pearson use to preach about.
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December 18, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Indian Lake Papa
I think I will contemplate a little before I respond!
I was never taught that children had to be baptized before they could get to heaven. We teach an ‘age of accountability’ principle. I Do believe there is a hell to shun. 
Wouldn’t it be great if I was wrong!
December 18, 2008 at 8:08 pm
edfromct
Papa, I hope you are right about Heaven and I am right Hell.
Some religions teach Hell as not sharing eternity with God. If I don’t accept God then I should have no expectations that he would accept me into his heaven. That is very different then saying a person will be condemned to a burning, everlasting Hell solely because they did not believe in him. Even if they were a great humanitarian and saved thousands of lives.
The great humanitarin who does not accept God should not be rewarded with Heaven. To condem them to an everlasting, burning Hell is something different.
December 18, 2008 at 8:58 pm
danielle
Ed,
I love the Gandhi quote that you put on Alece’s blog. I made it into art and put it up in my kitchen so I have to look at it and remember.
December 18, 2008 at 9:10 pm
danielle
Okay…now to comment…
Ed,
This post breaks my heart. I pray, pray, pray that no one will choose to go to hell.
The thing is…God doesn’t send anyone there. People choose (even if by way of ignoring the choice) to go to hell. God is so righteous that legally sinful, corrupted beings cannot be in his presence. And we cannot be made right with God without Jesus. Hell was not intended for mankind at all, but as the punishment for Lucifer’s rebellion. People who follow in rebellion and pride, like Lucifer, sadly follow to his eternity as well.
I do not ever believe that babies will be sent to hell. The Bible does not teach that. Baptism is not a “requirement” for heaven.
I have issue with this Bishop’s teaching. Truth is not an a la carte buffet that we pick and choose from. Truth is not relative or subjective. If it is, how can it be truth?
Ed, Merry Christmas.
December 18, 2008 at 10:08 pm
edfromct
Danielle, Thanks for taking the time for your thoughful comment.
“And we cannot be made right with God without Jesus”
As a non-believer I accept that if God does exist I would need to accept, and follow, his guidance if I have any expectations of joining him in Heaven.
“Hell was not intended for mankind at all, but as the punishment for Lucifer’s rebellion. People who follow in rebellion and pride, like Lucifer, sadly follow to his eternity as well.”
What about the billion plus people living in China, very few even know about Jesus, let alone follow his teachings. Are they all condemmed to Hell?
What if a person spent their whole life tending to the sick and needy. Never hurt anyone. Would they be condemmed to burn in Hell soley because I don’t believe in God? I know they would not join God in Heaven, but to say they would burn in Hell for eternity soley because they reject God?
December 18, 2008 at 11:30 pm
danielle
Ed,
These are hard questions that are painful to think about.
Concerning China and all other people groups where Jesus is unknown… I know that God desires every person to know about Him, to know His love. Some of the last words of Jesus were sending His followers into the entire world. Here is the awful truth: the Church has failed. The church has not taken this news as we were instructed.
Psalm 19 and Romans 1 describe how the world “declares the glory of God”…so much so that “they are without excuse”. This sense of a Creator is available to every person (theologians refer to this as general revelation).
I think that if one calls out to the Creator, even if they don’t know His Name, He will reveal Himself as God. They are many examples throughout history where Jesus, in a dream, came to people to preach the Gospel because the church had failed. It seems that people might come to know God through this general knowing that is available to the world.
This Creator worship is not to be confused with a earth worship/tribal anism/polytheism/new age kind of movement. Ed, I don’t really know how all the pieces fit together, but I do know what God has written and about His character. I know He loves and I have to believe that if someone is calling out for Truth, based in this general revelation, that God will meet them.
And, yes, without Jesus, even the most giving humanitarian will go to hell. As much as we would like it to be true, there are only two options: heaven or hell. Because no matter how good a person is, he or she has broken the laws of God. (Lying, stealing, dishonoring parents…and if that isn’t hard enough Jesus raised the standard…He taught that just looking at a woman in lust is the same as adultery…) How good is good enough? How good do you have to be go to heaven? How bad do you have to be to go to hell? These questions are interesting, but not really at all what will determine our eternal destination. The question that determines this is: what did you do with Jesus? We can never be as good as God, and no matter how close we get, we can never close that gap without Jesus.
December 18, 2008 at 11:38 pm
lovewillbringustogether
i’m probably more in line with your thinking Ed than i may seem.. but i did want to play ‘Devil’s Advocate’ for a sec or two…
Are you saying that as humans we should be immune from the consequences of our actions? That those who do good are not to be rewarded while those who do evil should not be punished?
Would God not have the right to assert this and then let us choose which consequences and which actions to take accordingly? Does Nature and all physical laws tend to the same underlying type of principle – for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction (action and consequence also?)
God can judge all through understanding of what lies at their heart/Core of their being and so no injustice will be done as might be by human judges. But if you think denying God does not have a consequence… i’d advise that some serious thought be given to that concept.
Much has been written and spoken on that particular topic – even in Chinese!
God is far bigger than any single religion can encapsulate – a single religion might well be able to ensure the Path to God for a number of people, but i don’t believe God – or Jesus – denies receipt of the Holy Spirit or entry to Heaven of those who live in Him while not specifically quoting the exact Name Christian sects have chosen. He knows your Heart and who it’s allegiance is to – Him or to yourself.
I’d like to add some about baptism (That Christ Himself received of John and taught the Disciples to offer) but i need to investigate Scripture more first)
<B
December 19, 2008 at 12:25 am
edfromct
Danielle Thinking about something like Hell is painful. Thank you again for taking the time to comment.
I understand that you, Papa and my other Christian friends don’t have the answer to many questions, which is why you search for better understand of Jesus’s teaching’s by studying the Bible.
I can see that your love of Jesus motivates in you a desire for everyone to share in this love. You reach out to God as he does to you as an act of love.
From my perspective however I do judge a God harshly if his guidance is that you either obey his will or burn in hell. In a burning hell I don’t see love I see hate.
A being that created an eternal, burning, hell is one that I would prefer not to spend much time with.
December 19, 2008 at 12:44 am
edfromct
Hello Love, since it’s winter here you Aussies must be enjoy summer down-under.
“Are you saying that as humans we should be immune from the consequences of our actions? That those who do good are not to be rewarded while those who do evil should not be punished?”
My question here is where the God of some Christians considers the sin of not believing in him sufficient to spend eternity in hell, irrespective of any other actions we may have taken in our lives.
“But if you think denying God does not have a consequence… i’d advise that some serious thought be given to that concept.”
I would expect that if I did not accept God, or his guidance, then the consequences is that I will not join him in Heaven when I die. If my sole “sin” is that I don’t believe in God, and as a result I will burn in hell for eternity, than that God seems more like Satan to me than a God.
“Much has been written and spoken on that particular topic – even in Chinese!”
I was just reading the quote by physicist Don Page, “In some sense, the physical laws seem to be analogous to the grammar and the language that God chose to use”, found in your friend Michio Kaku’s “Parallel Worlds”.
“He knows your Heart and who it’s allegiance is to – Him or to yourself.”
My allegiance is to the species I belong to, Homo Spaien, and the world I was born into.
December 19, 2008 at 8:33 am
danielle
Ed,
I’m enjoying this dialogue. Thanks for allowing me to share my heart and feel safe and respected.
I see your dilema. Hell is something everyone would rather not have to prcoess.
I have an odd question for you: Being atheist/agnostic (sorry…I forget which you title yourself) do you celebrate Christmas?
December 19, 2008 at 11:58 am
edfromct
Danielle I have never meet a holiday I didn’t celebrate.
I am an atheist because I don’t believe there is a God. I am an agnostic because science has taught me that anything is possible. I see these as two different questions.
I enjoy the “spirit” of Christmas that helps put a smile on everyone’s face, maybe not on the long lines at the mall.
I go to a Christmas sevice at a local Catholic church to share in the love of community I feel there.
I love the music of Christmas, religious and secular, and watching the look of wonder on the faces of my neices children as they open their presents.
December 19, 2008 at 12:56 pm
danielle
Good!
I love Christmastime…It is an amazing season.
Merry Christmas!!
December 19, 2008 at 1:24 pm
edfromct
Merry Christmas Danielle. May you and your family have a great, and safe, holiday season.
December 22, 2008 at 8:32 pm
lovewillbringustogether
Merry Christmas Ed
– Yup is summer here, not a snowflake in sight! 
“My question here is where the God of some Christians considers the sin of not believing in him sufficient to spend eternity in hell, irrespective of any other actions we may have taken in our lives.”
If that is what some Christians believe – then let them, you are not required to follow their Faith – but your own. Don’t let a point of ‘Law’ someone else shows is their Truth you prevent you from accepting the greater good.
And your question avoided mine, which was, do YOU believe people who do good should be rewarded while at the same time those who do not do so should be punished? is that not also ‘human’ ‘Justice’?
If you do believe that – and i know you do – then why should God be any different and not both reward and punish? Human punishment ends with our death but spiritual punishment must be for eternity.
Those who believe in the spirit would accept that if our spirit rejects God then we must accept the responsibility of doing that.
I think there is a deal of confusion concerning ’sin’ and being ‘good’ for most, if not all humans.
I choose to believe that if you love your fellow man as yourself that CAN be ‘good’ – but it could also be a ’sin’ in that to sin means to be self interested and not God interested – you want what you think will be best for yourself rather than what is best for Him.
By choosing to do what is good for your fellow human being you may be of the mind that “if i look after them then they are more likely to look after me (and not kill me to take what is mine) and this is ‘good’ “, when in fact it is merely being ultimately selfish. Wheareas if you genuinely believe that the best thing you can do is not what is in your best interest, but is in the interest of someone other than yourself (ie. God, in one or many parts of a whole) then you are truly obeying Him and , i believe, He is able to distinguish the Truth between those two situations (as is our own conscience) and reward or punish us accordingly.
I could be wrong in this and if i am and i have no spirit that lives after i die i might appear a little ‘foolish’ to some, but if i am anywhere near being ‘right’ then i will be completely foolish if i sell out here and ‘choose’ an eternity of punishment for my ego’s pride in itself in this life.
I’m sure Dannielle and all those who believe in God and have Faith in His Promised reward would wish that you see Him as being ‘real’ while you are ‘here’ and not face any punishment for following a ‘false’ Faith.
Our conscience can lead us to seek what is True in this situation. Our Ego will try to deceive us in the same matter in ANY way it can to deny God’s existence as being ‘greater’ than it’s own.
I wish you well in that internal and deeply personal ‘war’.
Again, i would not like to think your aversion to a single point someone else holds is ‘essential’ to entering Heaven would make you take up a viewpoint that did not allow you to see His Truth within yourself.
Our Ego (whole of our individual human personality – not just some small part of it) can be a very tricky thing.
To truly know ‘thyself’ is a very good, but rare, thing.
<B
December 22, 2008 at 11:31 pm
edfromct
Love, interesting and thought provoking comments as always.
“By choosing to do what is good for your fellow human being you may be of the mind that “if i look after them then they are more likely to look after me (and not kill me to take what is mine) and this is ‘good’ “, when in fact it is merely being ultimately selfish.”
I agree, but I find it a very complicated question. I think all my decisions are based on what is either in my own self interest, or in the interest of the collective human races, or my country, or my family, which could be argued is really in the self interest of perpetuating my own genes. It can be argued that even those apparently self-sacrificing decision, which I have made without giving a lot of thought to, may be based, on a subconsious level, on what is in my own self interest, or the self interest of my own genes(?) .
Being self centered I don’t consider how I will be judged by others as being important to my decision making. At least that is my hope.
“Wheareas if you genuinely believe that the best thing you can do is not what is in your best interest, but is in the interest of someone other than yourself (ie. God, in one or many parts of a whole) then you are truly obeying Him and , i believe, He is able to distinguish the Truth between those two situations (as is our own conscience) and reward or punish us accordingly.”
If God did exist than I agree that he would reward, or punish, someone based on his judgement of their beahavior.
Since I don’t believe God exist I see making a sacrifice for our family, as probably being in our own interest. For our sacrifice to not be in our own interest I think it would have to be for a stranger.
I believe our moral decisions, like self sacrifice, come from the environment we are born into, and the society we grow up in. I do expect both my family and my society to reward or punish me based on their judgement of my beahavior.
One of the things I have worked hardest at is trying to know myself. I can’t think of a good way to evaluate how well I have succeded, other than that I am happy and satisified with my life. Of course that could just mean I am delousional.
December 23, 2008 at 11:57 pm
lovewillbringustogether
To the best of my knowledge Ed – ALL of us have some form of ‘delusion’ or other – so you and i are simply ‘human’ in that respect.
I thank you for at least hearing (reading) what i wrote without taking offense (even if i did not fully ‘convince’ you).
Your logic above does seem to me to be quite ‘reasonable’.
I think a measure of how well we know ourself is how well we understand our ‘foundations’ – what it is we build all else ‘upon’. (from the very beginnings of childhood).
The most deluded people build on foundations that are very susceptible to being shaken by another’s ‘deeper’ reasoning. (but they refuse to ’see’ this themselves).
If we can always rely upon our foundation’s ’stability’ in the face of all reasoned opposition (testing our Faith) i think we have done ‘well’ in knowing our self.
That does require us to know well our own ‘internal blindness’ – the point at which we become incapable of seeing when we are actually in ‘logical’ ( realistic? but who decides what ‘real’ means?) error.
Or our degree of ‘delusion’, to put it another way
<B