I had lunch this past weekend with some friends, two of whom are a gay couple. They are as happy as any couple I know and they clearly have a deep love for each other. One of them mentioned a singer he enjoyed listening to, the Irish singer Morrisey.
I am not a big fan of Morrisey. I do like his voice, he sings with such emotion. To my knowledge Morrisey has never openly stated he was gay. In many articles he refers to himself as being asexual and celibate.
In the following song I think he asks a very good question. Why is a person given a desire when expressing that desire is a sin?
A better question is why are some babies born with both male and female sex organs? Science can explain this as a defect or mutation in the childs genes. How does this fit into God’s plan?
I wouldn’t do you no harm
I was a nice kid
with a nice paper-round
Forgive me any pain
I may have brung to you
with God’s help I know
I’ll always be near to you
but Jesus hurt me
when he deserted me / but
I have forgiven Jesus
for all the desire
He placed in me when there’s nothing I can do
about desire
I was a good kid
through hail and snow I’d go
just to moon you
I carried my heart in my hand
do you understand?
do you understand?
Jesus hurted
when he deserted me, but
I have forgiven Jesus
for all of the love
He placed in me
When there’s no-one I can turn to with this love
Monday - humiliation
Tuesday - suffocation
Wednesday - condescension
Thursday - is just pathetic
by Friday - life has killed me
by Friday - life has killed me
Why did you give me
so much desire?
when there is nowhere I can go
to offload this desire
Why did you give me
so much love
in a loveless world
when there is no one I can turn to
to unlock all this love
Why did you stick me in
self-deprecating bones and skin
Jesus - do you hate me?
Why did you stick me in
self-deprecating bones and skin
do you hate me? do you hate me?
do you hate me? do you hate me?
23 comments
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April 30, 2008 at 9:03 pm
1godsgal
Hi Ed: I really don’t know how to answer you, as you know what I feel. But I don’t believe that God instills this desire in you….it’s against everything He is. There was a time when I coult just not be around this particular sin…..but now I can.
This is a choice, always a choice. It is no different to me than any other sin. These people are no less that anyone else in sin. All I can say is we live in a fallen world…..this confusion is one result.
May 1, 2008 at 5:33 am
Indian Lake Papa
I am not much of one to get into these kind of discussions as they tend to cause more division than reconciliation. Jesus loved versus debated. His debate was with religious leaders, not me as a sinner. The lyrics were interesting - searching. That intrigues me, Christ has always been my guide and answer. He has always been there - I think “trust” is required.
May 1, 2008 at 9:36 am
mandy
i don’t think God ever meant the world to turn out the way it did, or else the Garden of Eden would’ve been just like what we’re in now.
May 1, 2008 at 11:59 am
edfromct
Deb, Mandy and Papa, thanks for you thoughts on this complicated question.
I see love as an emotion, not something we have a choice about. We do choice to act or not to act on this emotion, but I don’t see that we can deny the feeling itself.
The lyrics of Morrisey’s speak of some one believes in God. Who understands that his desire is a sin. Someone who has not chosen to fell love for another man. Someone who is searching for the reason for the way he feels. There are many stories of gay people who feel conflicted in this way.
Is gay love the result of man having turned his back on God at the Garden of Eden? Are gay people being punished for having been born into a “fallen” world?
What does a minister tell a gay person who is searching for why they feel the way they do?
Science is coming up with an answer. It is most likely in our genes. What is the churches answer, not to the question of whether gay love is right or wrong, but why do some people feel gay love in the first place?
May 2, 2008 at 10:37 am
ric booth
Hey Ed,
GREAT Post! I was right there with you for 39 years. I would go from being confused with “God” to being furious with “God” and God’s people to dismissing the very notion of such a God. Here’s my thoughts on this… not to be confused with theology or doctrine.
I have learned, and/or accepted, that we live in a fallen, broken world. In a perfect world there would a man for every woman and vise versa. Our bodies would be perfectly male or female. Our desires would be to be with each other. We would have no desires for anyone else. None of us fit that description, heterosexual, homosexual, bi, whatev. We all suffer from the same fallen and broken nature.
This falleness exists because we (humanity) have turn away from perfection (God) of our own free will. If one is a Bible literalist, Adam and Eve were the first to do this and all humanity has “inherited” this fallen nature. If one believe Genesis is a metaphor, Adam and Eve illustrate our own lives. We are born with imperfect bodies with imperfect desires because we exist in imperfection.
Bottom line, I (me) openly rejected perfection (God) choosing instead something else… for me it was sex, money and status … just to name a few. I was born with imperfection into imperfection because this is what humanity desires. We chose this. We continue to choose this.
Now in my mind that left me with a couple of “yeah but’s” like “well, I personally did not choose to be born imperfect to be part of this imperfect world.” For me this was a hurdle. I think science fiction helped me the most here.
I know God exists outside of time but for the sake of arguement lets assume God exists in his own timeline the is completely separate from ours. This simplifies the description. Lets say God was trying a billion or a trillion possible ways for history to play out and he could bounce back and forth through our time line… dropping in and taking our temperature so to speak. He would be able to see that no matter how carefully he made me that in each and every one of those trillion possible combinations I would intentionally choose imperfection over Him.
So god knew (before I know… even before I was conceived) that I would reject Him. Even under the very best of circumstances this happens everyone. God knows this. God knew this.
So why does he go on creating? Again, timeline. He finished creation long ago. He has created my children and grandchildren. He has even created my grandchildren’s children and their children. He already knows them. I am in the timeline and cannot see or know them.
Why doesn’t he fix it? Why allow the timeline to continue?
He has. He dropped in on the timeline 2000 years ago in the person Jesus, the son, to show us the way out of imperfection-ville. I like to think of it as the perfect like one of us so that we, the imperfect, might leave the imperfect and become more like Him.
In this world this is all messy. Christians with imperfections seems contradictory and hypocritical but that is exactly what we are. As I spend more time with perfection (Jesus) I become more Christ-like. That isn’t to say I become more perfect or even less imperfect. I DO however become very much aware of how broken I am and how beautiful He is. I also know there is a perfect world promised namely heaven.
So there’s some of the mind behind the heart you read in my poems. When I mixed tenses in my poetry it is because of this God-timeline thing.
e.g. the angels sang out, “A savior is born!”
still no one knew the curtain was torn.
I get this from the John. “For God so loved the world (us) He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life”
Notice the past tense? Jesus is speaking these words PRIOR (in our timeline) to dieing on the cross. Note that is is not only talking about the cross in past tense (as if He’s seen it, been there, done that) but is is ALSO talking about this imperfect world in the past tense.
If this sounds really weird to you, it probably because it is my weird mind try to wrap itself around God’s plan and the weird wacky world you describe in your post. Incidentally, this is the very first time I’ve shared this corner of my brain (with such detail anyways).
May 2, 2008 at 12:49 pm
edfromct
Ric, thank you for taking the time to provide me with a better understanding the Christian view. I can see you have gone through a period of difficult self examination, which is a painful process for all of us. I clearly understand imperfection being far from perfect my self.
Both you and Deb speak to the fallen world man created, when he turned his back to God, as being the sources of the broken and confused world you see us living in. When we turn our backs on God this is an act of free will. I can follow that. There are two points I am seeking clarification one.
1. Do you believe that gay love is an act of free will? Are all babies born into the world as heterosexual. Then something happens and a man chooses to take another man as is lover?
2. Why are babies being punished by being born with sever birth defects, such as being born with male and female sex organs? I can understand why an act of free will result in a person be punished by distancing themselves from God. A baby however has no control over the body it is born with.
I don’t see how a child born with both male and female sex organs can be considered born a heterosexual.
When God created his time line he must have foreseen this potential. I would seem to me that God as some responsibility for the way this children are being born.
May 2, 2008 at 1:05 pm
ric booth
Ed, Very good questions. I’m on my way out but will revisit later tonight hopefully.
May 2, 2008 at 3:08 pm
ric booth
One at a time…
“Do you believe that gay love is an act of free will? Are all babies born into the world as heterosexual. ”
If by “gay love” you mean sex, then yes of course sex is an act of free will. If you mean lusting or coveting then yes again. So far I would respond to heterosexual-love with the same answers.
If you mean physical attraction, I don’t know. If someone is born wired to be attracted to the same sex, then I would fully expect them to feel the same toward their life partner as I do for my wife. I have not studied the medical explanations but I suspect in this physically broken world it is quite possible to be born physically wired to be gay.
“Then something happens and a man chooses to take another man as is lover?”
Again, I don’t know. I’ve heard this happens. I have not studied it so I cannot speak to it. I personally do not feel it important enough to consume my time. Many Christians make a big deal over the gay “issue” when frankly the sins of adultery, greed, and lust are pervasive in the American church. We need to focus on our legitimate problems and stop spot-lighting homosexuality. I don’t know if we’ll ever do that but it is my prayer that we refocus our energies.
“Why are babies being punished by being born with sever birth defects, such as being born with male and female sex organs? I can understand why an act of free will result in a person be punished by distancing themselves from God. A baby however has no control over the body it is born with.”
This is a tough one… for sure. To answer this I’ll go back to my timeline and answer from a first-person perspective.
God absolutely knew me when he created the world. He saw that I would reject Him. No matter what the circumstances were, I would choose many imperfect ways to satisfy my internal insatiable desire (for perfection).
“so I started to struggle to rebuild my Eden, if i could only do that i would not need Him.”
God know this of everyone. This is why we were (and are) banished from Eden. I see it as banished from perfection. Perfect health. Perfect body. Perfect Love. Perfection. You can look at this as God punished us and banished us. I look at it as we willing chose (and choose) imperfection.
I think of it as telling my once 16 year old son, “Be home by midnight or you WILL be grounded for a week.” At that moment the choice belongs to my 16 year old. If he decided hanging out with his friend that night was worth the punishment… well that would be his choice. He would leave me with no choice.
So I’ve been born with many physically umm… peculiarities. My tongue was complete fastened to the bottom of my mouth. I could not lift it. The doctors had to cut my tongue free. I am extremely near-sighted and must wear corrective lens to do ANYTHING. I have a mold on the side of my nose. I have another mole on the back of my neck. I am lactose intolerant.
Am I being punished? I along with the rest of humanity exist in an imperfect, broken world BECAUSE we individually and collectively have chosen to exist here. I see our physical peculiarities as a side-effect of this choice. I accept that some people see it as direct punishment. I think of it as God saying, “If you want to live apart from me, then so be it.”
My nephew was born with his bladder outside his body. Another nephew died of strangulation in the 8th month of my sister-in-law’s pregnancy. Did those babies do anything to deserve their fate. No, not in our timeline anyway.
Its a tough question and no answer will seem to fit just perfectly.
May 2, 2008 at 4:15 pm
edfromct
Ric, you make a very good point that “We need to focus on our legitimate problems and stop spot-lighting homosexuality”.
I think that for too many non-believers when they look at the religious world they focus on a few issue, homo-sexuality and evolution. These are important issues, I want to improve my understanding of them, but there is far more to Christianity and a religious lifestyle then just these two issues. What I see, what I have learned over the past year, is that I think the focus of a Christian lifestyle is to become a better person and to help their neighbors. If we all work at this the world will become a better place.
Back to the issue.
I can understand how a Christian could believe that in turning our backs on God man has created a world where things like gay love and deformed babies exist.
The issue I have yet to see an adequate religious explanation for is how God could be absolved of any responsibility for creating a world where deformed babies could exist. An adult has the free will to choose to live apart from God, a baby does not.
May 2, 2008 at 6:10 pm
ric booth
Yet I am “deformed.” I could not nurse when born. I cannot see that well. I “had” a deviated septum (corrected surgically). I do not deserve perfection. Yet perfection is offered to me none the less. As a Christian, I believe I will be fully restored in heaven, body and soul. No more blemishes. No more imperfection.
What level of imperfection (deformity) would we be comfortable with? What if God had said, “Well, near-sightedness will be the only deformity.” Would we be satisfied? Or would we say, “Hey, God I don’t want to be near-sighted! Why am I near sighted?” We would be back to asking for perfection very soon. That is what we crave. Yet, it cannot be found in the things of this imperfect world. We are no long in Eden, yet Eden is what we crave.
CS Lewis said something along these lines, “If I find in myself a deep desire for something not of this world, then I must conclude that I was not made for this world.”
May 2, 2008 at 6:22 pm
ric booth
“If I in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, to most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.” –C. S. Lewis
I looked it up.
May 2, 2008 at 7:18 pm
edfromct
Ric, I have often thought of myself as not being made for this world, most of my childhood and teen years.
Is the Christian answer that any suffering these babies enduring is solely the result of man having turned his back on God. Yet Christian also say God created the universe which to me means God must take some responsibility for this process. I can’t fit babies, who lack free will, having to suffer as being part of a benevolent God’s universe. Man sins so baby’s must suffer? Do Christian’s believe that God is wholly benevolent?
Science gives me an answer I can more easily understand. It’s the result of a defect, or mutation, in the genes a baby is born with. No fault, no blame, just a consequence of evolution.
“As a Christian, I believe I will be fully restored in heaven, body and soul. No more blemishes. No more imperfection.”
Does this mean that if this baby dies before reaching an age where that can exercise free will the baby will join God in Heaven?
Of course I can’t say I completely understand the scientific answer any more that I expect you to have a perfect understanding of God’s will. We are both searching for better answers.
Thanks for taking the time to try and enlighten me. Your input helps me think of better questions.
May 2, 2008 at 8:16 pm
ric booth
“Does this mean that if this baby dies before reaching an age where that can exercise free will the baby will join God in Heaven?”
I think Catholic doctrine says no… unless they are baptized. Although I don’t know how many practicing Catholics believe their doctrine. Most Protestant doctrine says yes. I think the truth may be we do not know. And I wonder if that is intentional.
May 3, 2008 at 12:34 am
tam
What an amazing conversation here.
I can’t answer most of these questions. I am not God. i just don’t know.
Why do bad things happen? Why do bad things happen to good people? We live in an imperfect world in imperfect bodies.
I think what’s important here is our response to these things. Can these misfortunes bring us closer together? Broaden our understanding of life and acceptance. Would that please God? Depends on our response I suppose.
May 3, 2008 at 11:56 am
edfromct
Tam, I think we can all agree we don’t have the perfect answer. I agree it is how we respond to questions we face in life everyday is what is most important.
My perception is that when seeking answers to problems the Christian focus is perhaps more of an internal one. The filter is God.
A non-believer may seek answers more by observing what is happening around them. The filter is the world they live in.
Of course our personal experiences shape the method by which we seek to understand the world.
We both have found what works best for each of us. We may not find the perfect answer, we will hopefully find a good answer, one that works.
May 4, 2008 at 7:21 am
ric booth
“We both have found what works best for each of us. We may not find the perfect answer, we will hopefully find a good answer, one that works.”
Hey Ed, If I can turn the table and ask you some of the same questions… like: Why are babies born with deformities? How do you explain this still occurring after millions of years of evolution and survival of the fittest and all? Shouldn’t we have evolved past vision problems? Would those who could not see the hand in front of their faces (like me) have been killed? What about my sinuses… if I’d been born before penicillin, I probably would have died of pneumonia at a young age. Why do these traits still exist after millions of years of evolution / survival of the fittest?
Another example: my cousin’s son is 4 years old and has been fighting cancer for a year. I think the stats are 1 child in 1000 gets cancer. That’s seems incredibly high. The mortality rate is 95% with today’s medical treatment. Prior to medicine, it was 100%. Which means all children suffering this “defect” would never have reproduced for millions of years. Why is it still with us or at least why isn’t it at least like 1 in a 100-million?
I hope you don’t mind me flipping the tables but I am now curious about the answer that works for you.
May 4, 2008 at 11:54 am
edfromct
Ric, I love talking about evolution. I have a general understanding of this process and will have to do research to answer any questions about it in detail.
Mutations in the genes, the DNA, a child receives from it’s parents, occurs, randomly, all the time. I would not be surprised if there is an difference in the DNA, or the genes, between every child that is born and their parent’s DNA or genes. Almost all of these mutations have no significant impact on how a child looks or it’s potential in life. We can only see these differences when we look at our genes with a microscope.
Sometimes the mutations does have a significant impact on the child. A child born with both male and female sex organs would be an example. If the child survives long enough to reproduce it will pass on the potential for this gene to be expressed in it’s children. Once again the new child may, or may not inherit, the gene which will result in it being born with both male and female sex organs. Over time if enough children with this gene survive and reproduce it increases the odds that this gene, or perhaps DNA, I am not clear on the exact process, will occur in the population. If the mutation gives the child an increased chance to survive and reproduce than more and more children with the mutation will likely be born and it will spread through out the population.
The environment also has an impact on the child as it is developing in the womb. Also the environment, I think, can effect the sperm a man has and the eggs of a women. This, I as understand it, can also result in a mutation in genes their child is born with.
The best book on this subject is “Mutants”, “Who are the mutants? We are all mutants.” by Dr. Armand Leroi, his web site is http://armandleroi.com/ .
Of course as with all science there are new discoveries being made every day. Everything I have just said could be proven wrong tomorrow, but that’s how science works.
Thanks for asking the question. I look forward to any other question you, or anyone else has, or any clarification you may need. I’ll do my best to give you an answer.
May 4, 2008 at 12:09 pm
edfromct
As far as cancer goes no one has yet to find out exactly what causes it. If they did then we would have a cure already. Science is getting closer to the answer and can cure some forms of the disease.
Some people appear to be born with a genetic predisposition to cancer, and other illnesses.
Some people develop cancer because of the environment they are exposed to.
If cancer is a virus, as many scientist think, than the virus can mutate just like we do. We develop a cure and the cancer virus mutates to survive that cure.
Check back with me next year and I am sure I will have a better answer.
The pace of scientific discoveries is increasing exponentially every year.
May 4, 2008 at 12:55 pm
edfromct
Ric,
“How do you explain this still occurring after millions of years of evolution and survival of the fittest and all? Shouldn’t we have evolved past vision problems? Would those who could not see the hand in front of their faces (like me) have been killed?”
The scientific evidence suggest that Homo Sapiens evolved between 200,000 and 250,000 years ago. New evidence, better equipment to more accurately date the evidence, keeps changing this number.
Because mutations are random the potential for a child to be born with poor vision will probably always exist. The more babies with poor vision that survive and reproduce the more this trait will be found in the population. What changes is the percentage of the population that has poor vision.
As the environment changes a trait becomes more or less of a survival advantage. I would guess that poor vision was a disadvantage 200,000 years ago and may have been rare in early man. Today poor vision can be corrected and it probably has no impact on a person’s chance to survive and reproduce. A greater percentage of the population of today will have poor vision than 200,000 years ago.
I did say I love to talk about evolution.
May 5, 2008 at 5:55 am
ric booth
Thanks for your responses Ed. The last time I “studied” evolution was high school science back in the 70s (I’m sooo young!) Apparently, evolution has evolved in thirty years.
May 5, 2008 at 10:58 am
edfromct
Ric, our understanding of this process called evolution is changing everyday.
I would expect at least some of my explanation has already been proven wrong, or is in the process of being proven wrong, as I write this.
One of the biggest factors improving our ” scientific” understanding of the world is improving technology. This gives scientist the ability to make more accurate observations.
Scientist can now actually see DNA and genes. The more accurately we can see inside something the better questions we can come up with the better answers scientist will find.
May 9, 2008 at 8:13 pm
the anti-blogger
ed - i’m a little late to this conversation, but i just want to say that i love the fact that you are asking these questions. i don’t have answers to really add to what’s been said here, but the fact that you are searching and digging is so great.
i’m proud to call you a friend.
May 9, 2008 at 8:15 pm
the anti-blogger
ok - this is really alece, not the anti-blogger.